[Feedback] Warborn Cadence is still bad (examples with videos inside)

[Rhylthar]

@mad_lee:
Didn’t mean Oppressor, RF Sentinel it would be.

[Smitherson]

Cadence needs a few skill mods on Warborn. Warborn has 3 generic mods (War Cry and Oleron’s Rage) and 3 EoR ones, with exactly 0 Cadence mods across the whole set. Something like +1 target and X phys damage on the mace and +50% WD to Cadence on 4pc.

Also, if we’re bitching about Warborn, that War Cry bonus damage on the mace needs to be tripled at least if it’s supposed to be meaningful and not just a way to break boxes.

[ya1]

a way to break boxes

Yeah! Why is no-one looking at the bright side?

[Stupid_Dragon]

So that’s what damage bonuses on warcry are for.

[holystar88]

Agree, Warborn could use some buffs. On the other side, I think Crucible should be slightly harder, otherwise most builds with massive dmg do it like eating a cake.

[Ceno]

So last time my thread got derailed by people who have started giving me unsolicited (and bad) build advice instead of actually discussing

V1.1.6.0 Itemization Discussion

V1.1.6.0 Itemization Discussion

https://www.grimtools.com/calc/qNYXzbJZ

I am sorry, I couldn’t just walk past it. But why do you even use Savagery on your build, when you don’t convert any of the Lightning damage to Vitality? Your weapon damage is abysmally low for any meaningful melee two-handed action. Also even though you used twenty fantasy greens your total Vitality damage is still 1463%, smh.

I would recommend dropping this melee nonsense, and playing it as a caster (with Vitality belt and medal), it would be infinitely better, I guarantee.

In any event, you got everything you need to know in your very first thread on this matter:

[Feedback] Melee Physical Cadence needs a buff

In today’s news, single target AA skill not hitting peak clear times in AoE-centric game mode and yet still manages a sub 8 minute time.

Buff it here and there if you want, but Cadence will never perform sub-6, lest main-game balance (which is Crate’s main selling point) be thrown entirely out of whack. That in mind, it’s questionable what you’re after.

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but Cadence will never perform sub-6

Pierce easily does that. I know you mean phys but mad_lee will always use this technicality against you

[Ceno]

But in principle warborn cadence should be performing better than an unsupported and an arguably weaker (in vacuum, imo) skill. However, in reality it is equivalent performance. To me that’s not right.

The issue for a player like me is not that it is 8min. It is that a stupid build and an intended build are sitting at the same level (lower level serving to suggest the outlier is the intended build, and not the gimmick). This comparison is the issue.

Well this is the part where I point out the stupidity in running Warborn Cadence Warlord (hence why I will always advocate for Warborn Cadence Blademaster, Death Knight, Witchblade, or even Commando before Warlord) and expecting that just because you have +skills to both masteries you don’t need to think about what the set you’re wearing is actually offering you. Oathkeeper offers very little that Cadence wants - no attack speed, limited flat damage (only on Rebuke), etc. Warborn Eye of Reckoning is great because EoR is less demanding (and inherently more-AoE-centric). Likewise, Warborn RF Dervish is quite functional and very synergistic what with having attack speed on Consecration and WPS % WD multiplication/AoE. So a very-synergistic setup without +skills on a main set performs comparable to a non-synergistic setup with +skills on a main set. I fail to see the issue.

On the other hand, ML’s Death Knight performs much, much better than both of them, because Necromancer offers far more for Cadence than Oathkeeper does and benefits from the +skills whereas the Dervish does not.

So yes, I “see your perspective.” But your perspective is not affording you a broad view of the situation at hand.

Edit: This reads more aggressively than I had intended. My apologies for that.

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On the other hand, ML’s Death Knight performs much, much better than both of them, because Necromancer offers far more for Cadence than Oathkeeper does and benefits from the +skills whereas the Dervish does not.

until you look at the GT for both and see that it’s got almost identical stats. Necro offers more flat? Then why does that GT for the warlord have around the same paper damage as DK before ascension is even activated?

Also, do you seriously believe Commando is better than Warlord for Cadence? Cause that’s what’s stupid.

[Ceno]

Then why does that GT for the warlord have around the same paper damage as DK before ascension is even activated ?

Because Oathkeeper bloats the tooltip with Internal Trauma. And also because the Necro didn’t Cunning dump.

Also, do you seriously believe Commando is better than Warlord for Cadence?

Dunno, I think it’d be close but Commando would inherently be more defensive meaning you can get more aggressive with other choices. That in and of itself might make it better because that’d mean the average times would be higher, given that less-skilled players would have an easier time of it.

[Maya]

[thejabrixone]

https://i.imgur.com/emX8M7w.gif

It’s always entertaining seeing the dynamic duo’s (ceno n norzan) perspective and comment about build.

[Ceno]

It’s always entertaining seeing the dynamic duo’s (ceno n norzan) perspective and comment about build.

Don’t worry, we *ahem* are “entertained” by you lot, too.

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Because Oathkeeper bloats the tooltip with Internal Trauma. And also because the Necro didn’t Cunning dump.

Necro did cunning dump. But even if it did full dump, there won’t be much difference. DK with Soul harvest has ~2k higher flat phys than warlord before ascension. But then you count the crits and it should be even when it comes to raw damage, warlord might even be better. Necro’s real advantage is WPS, enabling more frequent cadence resets. Warlord’s is crit and passive RR, the latter being one of the strongest non mandatory stats (i.e. not resists) in the game. If you’ve looked at the past OP melee builds, you’ll see infiltrator was always best when in comes to cold just due to censure alone. Warlord is not stupid for warborn cadence. Celestial Presence alone makes it worth it.

But yes, DK should be on par. Aside from RR, the support for cadence itself is better.

Dunno, I think it’d be close but Commando would inherently be more defensive meaning you can get more aggressive with other choices. That in and of itself might make it better because that’d mean the average times would be higher, given that less-skilled players would have an easier time of it.

You still won’t have damage. There’s only so much damage sources to choose from. Blademaster works because of WPS synergy with cadence, but commando only has flat, some attack speed and Blast Shield, all of those can be worked around by warlord.

[Ceno]

commando only has flat, some attack speed and Blast Shield, all of those can be worked around by warlord

Commando

• Flat Damage (two sources, courtesy of Bero)
• Speed
• OA/DA Shred (Flashbang/BWC)
• OA/DA (Flame Touched/Temper)
• Impaired Aim/Fumble
• Blast Shield

Warlord

• Flat Damage (one source)
• OA
• % Damage/% OA with <50% uptime
• % DA with <50% uptime
• RR

That’s uh…really it, to be honest.

Frankly I’m surprised there hasn’t been a Phys RR mod for Thermite Mines yet. Could do a lot of Phys Demolitionist builds with Bero.

[Zantai]

one being a joke

Which one’s the joke?

[omegam0]

[mad_lee]

@Ceno

We have been through this. I have tested Witchblade and Death Knight and Warlord and made a thread about it. @Nery has tested Witchblade. Witchblade is the worst one in terms of damage and the least consistent one. Stop spreading misinformation and using it as a part of your argument. Several builders who have actually TESTED IT told you that you are incorrect.

Your “theory” about Commando could not be further from truth. It would be much slower than WL/DK/WB. You don’t understand how melee build work apparently. If you load it up with stuff like Flashbang and BWC you are only going to make it slower, because you are interrupting your attacks with average casting speed and confusing monsters with a Flashbang. Someone from our discord has actually tested Warborn Commando and it was a pretty sad 8-minute plus build.

Cadence Soldier can be a sub-6 minute build and double Reaver Claw Shattered Set Blademaster has proved it.

On the other hand, ML’s Death Knight performs much, much better than both of them, because Necromancer offers far more for Cadence than Oathkeeper does and benefits from the +skills whereas the Dervish does not.

How are you making this stuff up? It does not, it performs on par with Warlord.

[ya1]

I have tested Witchblade and Death Knight and Warlord

SILENCE! Physical Cadence COMMANDO is the best - and that is the real reason why physical Cadence can’t be buffed!

[Nery]

I have tested Witchblade and Death Knight and Warlord

SILENCE! Physical Cadence COMMANDO is the best - and that is the real reason why physical Cadence can’t be buffed!

Witchblade it’s second best or third best then after Battlemage and Commando .You have CoF and Pox to cast all major devotion procs - Azraaka, Oleron and ofc Assassins mark. Problem is you end up with 2.5k DA. That’s easy to correct with Ravager’s eye on both weapons combined with OA shred from two separate sources.

Results? Build have incredible sheet DPS combined with two best physical procs. But damage isn’t better than DK or WL and now Dervish. You have less RR and it’s on cast so you have to interrupt Cadence unlike DK and WL. Death Knight have massive life steal and WPS. Warlord have another WPS and overall best support for physical outside of Soldier.

Both Necro and Oathkeeper have higher health and passive RR. So Occultist it’s looking good but only on paper. In reality it’s squishier option and not even faster.

Commando have zero - RR, Demo have no WPS, health and useful skills are casts that interrupt your Cadence. So will not be better than DK and WL for sure.