The complaints are not that the affixes are hard to get or fantasy items (an MI with 1 rare and 1 magical affix can still be annoying to get, but it’s not particularly rare). Most of the complaints (including mine) stem from the massive swing between the rolls on a piece of gear, when expanded to an entire build. 9 flat damage vs 17 is not a huge difference when it’s just one item, but when every item has such a large swing, there’s a large difference. About 50% for the top build as it turns out.
There is no solution to this though.
If you use the fantasy items (and let’s be real, a legendary item with max rolls on all the important stats is a fantasy item) that are used in the character files above, then you’re showing a character that the average person is never going to come close to matching. If you use minimum rolls, then no one will want to play them because they’ll struggle to clear content.
It’s more like 50% damage swing between the rolls on the items in the character files you can download above and the lowest rolls available. Average rolls would still result in a very large difference of ~25%.
Like I said though, there is no solution here that will keep everyone happy.
Lets not act as if these complaints comes from anything other than the video you made, knowing full well what reaction it would cause on reddit.
Paikis its getting tiresome to see you downplay this list any chance you get. If you dont like it why dont you just ignore this thread and focus on your own content. You dont see us belittle your builds.
We enjoy to create and min max builds. Regardless of gear rolls, this was our list of top performing builds at the time and we posted our work here for the community to take part of. Average Joe should not expect to replicate our timers, maybe we need to make that clearer.
Let’s not pretend I have that much sway. Let’s also not pretend that this is a new thing that I started. Complaints about builds created in GDStash go back to well before I started playing Grim Dawn.
I just noticed and made a video about it.
One of the first things I said in that video was that the builds were good. I even encouraged people to give them a shot and said that they would have a good experience with them even without GDStash.
I also have mad_lee’s response pinned at the top of the comments, and even offered to post it for him when it was being auto-filtered for having a rogue URL in it.
This isn’t about you or your builds specifically, but about GDStashed builds in general. The entire thing came about from being told in another thread that the difference between the GDStashed gear and what would roll naturally was very small, so I decided to see just what it was. I did not expect it to be anything like 50% stronger.
The only reason I used mad_lee’s trickster was that the build was already done and all the printing and sorting to get good rolls was also already done, on a character with the file available. If I’d had to do it myself I’m sure it would have taken me a couple hours of looking through items.
50% is a huge difference. A low rolled version of any of those builds wouldn’t even make the honourable mentions list.
Im not interested in a drawn out discussion with you. If you want to discuss GD stashed builds why dont you create a thread for that purpose.
We played the game legit for tons of hours. These days theorycrafting is what keeps us playing and for that we need GD stash to come up with optimal setups.
I dont think it comes as a surprise to anyone that high rolled gear is better than low rolled. If all builds theoretically had the same rolls, high/low/average, this list would look the same.
GDStashing min rolls with 0 seed is more unrealistic than max rolled items in the thread in general and extremely biased and dishonest approach to show “GDStashed Gear and it’s effects on Grim Dawn Builds”.
What you should do for this comparison to have any practical value is to generate random character using GD-Edit + choose best out of 3 for some of them (for set pieces since you can reroll them if trash rolls for example, maybe some legendaries) and leave the rest like Alkamos rings which are very rare.
PS I haven’t watched the whole video carefully just skimmed through it so sorry for misunderstanding sth but this is simply spreading misinformation.
You’re right. I made a mistake in the maths. Reasons to not adlib while recording. Just go with the script. 46%.
How is using GDStash to show a minimum roll and a very high roll dishonest? Especially in a video made to show the difference between low and high rolls? What is the title of the video?
"GDStashed Gear and it’s effects on Grim Dawn Builds”
Seems to me that’s exactly what I showed.
Yes, I used the 0 seed. I stated at the start that I did this and that no one was actually going to get those rolls. I also have said several times now that an average roll vs the rolls as shown is still 23% difference, which is huge.
Having said that, no one is going to play for thousands of hours to get anywhere close to the fantasy rolls in GDStashed builds either, so fair is fair. Minimum rolled items are just as likely as any other roll. Assuming there isn’t something in the code to bias average or high rolls.
Nothing I said in that video is false or untrue except the maths mistake, which was pointed out days ago and I admitted it was wrong at the time. There is nothing misleading at all.
The title of the video is GDStashed Gear and it’s effects on Grim Dawn Builds
with the following comment under the video
How this is not an ill-willed misinformation? You’re implying the authors of the thread got 55% more damage by cheating using GDStash.
[EDIT] I see that you changed it just now to 46% but it’s still misinformation.
But all players will have way better rolls which is the reason the title is not correct because it’s doesn’t show “GDStashed Gear and it’s effects on Grim Dawn Builds” for players but the difference between Impossible GDStashed 0 seed rolls and Top 20 rolls ? Why are you so disingenuous? Someone unbiased shouldn have done such an analysis and not you.
Are you suggesting that any player would be able to come close to the rolls shown in the builds here? Because if you are, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
Why are you so disingenuous? You say “impossible GDstashed 0 seed rolls”, and then turn around and say “Top 20 rolls” like they are any more likely than a 0 seed item. Even with rerolling set items, it’s going to take hundreds of tries to even get close, and that’s only on the set items. Good luck rerolling those greens and non-set legendaries. How many of those will need to drop to max out even 2 of the stats that matter?
Yes. I did change it. Thank you for pointing out the error.
Never said that, don’t change the subject. Maybe it is possible, maybe not, I don’t know. Just make an actual proper, unbiased, realistic analysis rather than misinform like that. If you say Top 20 approach is bad, yours is even worse.
That is the subject. You can’t simultaneously tell me I’m bad for using cheated low rolls while excusing and even defending GDStashed builds for doing exactly the same thing.
I have not done that in this conversation. Only critiquing your video. Very rarely maxing rolls myself like that, mostly because I’m too lazy. Have not participated in making Top 20 and I don’t belong to their Discord. And expressed this is the past
Would anyone like to explain a normal distribution curve? I think an understanding of math is the problem here, as well as not understanding how items are spawned in.
AFAIK we cannot spawn perfect items, the only specified roll we can do is the 0 seed, which gives us the worst item possible.
There are millions if not billions of possible seeds for an item, spawning in 10 or 100 or 1000 items won’t make a dent in that number, all you are doing is making it likelier that the item you get is on the upper half of the bell curve and making it less likely to be a randomly trash rolled item, putting every item closer together for comparisons sake. If one build got an outlier roll higher or lower it would impact the comparisons a lot, but spawning several items and picking your favourite helps negate that.
If you are comparing 200 builds then farming naturally for the items is far too time consuming, but so is spawning 1 000 000 items for each build and each slot and manually comparing them. Spawning 10-20 is more doable while still reducing the risk of getting an unusually bad item. And it also simulates what a normal player would experience if they like the build to the point where they’d like to optimize it.
@Paikis tqFan summed up a problem with your video pretty well. Basically without even talking about your real intent there your methodology and your testing in that video are literally rigged to prove your point that “Top rolled builds are unrealistic and without top rolls they won’t perform as advertised”. Because one should compare top rolled version with a version with average or above average rolls. That’s what players would have at their hands (at first, before they start slowly improving it with better affixes and better rolls on legendaries which is a natural progression for any arpg). Nobody starts with literal 0 seed rolls, they are even more impossible than top rolls. Showing the build with 0 seed rolls does not make any sense. Moreover it makes it look your initial intent (to any outside observer that doesn’t have any stake in this and with enough game knowledge like @tqFan) disingenious.
Another albeit smaller rigged part of the test is throwing the build at SR90. We made it clear that those are top farmers that perform the best in content where farming is made. SR90 or Celestials was a much lesser factor when making that top20. So test should’ve been done in SR 75-76 really. Instead you just went to SR90 which is notoriously hard for melee builds. And not only that but with the impossible min-rolled build that noone will ever have. Like I think you should understand why your video rubbed some of us off the wrong way.
EDIT: and I forgot to add that for some reason you are barely pressing Ring of Steel in that video. Like it has Elemental Storm bound to it and you are just not proccing it enough. Not even mentioning Fumbles that would add a bit of survivability in a harsh environment like SR90.
You take minimum rolls to critique low probability of max rolls. But you neglect that low rolls have the same low probability. The most probable state are average rolls. So practically no build will be as gimped as your min rolled build…
Getting good rolled legendaries is easy if you play SR… With the exception of monster specific legendaries like Alkamos´ rings…
Greens are a different case of course.
Statistically you can get easily somewhere between average and max rolls… If you at least play a bit of GD.
haven’t seen the vid, honestly don’t care
but what is this 46-55% based on?
because even just on appearance, seems like it doesn’t fit/or someone doesn’t understand gear rolls?
on avg, each slot has like 15%'ish additive dmg(not total build dmg) difference per slot “on the max from avg”.
On a dualwield build we’re than talking 14 slots, so 210% more dmg than average - i emphasise avg because you will not and basically can’t be so unfortunate to minroll 14 slots in legit play either
Even if an avg build has 2500%dmg (which they dont/most have more) that’s 8% more build dmg, which is in effect less because cunning/spirit etc.
Even if an item had flat dmg, and was a weapon attacker to scale it, and had flat dmg on every single item (which they also don’t) you’re looking at like 20 on weapon slot, 2-5 on armour/jewellery slots (from the avg roll to max), for like 90 more (base) flats - assuming the build has a possible flat source on every 12 slots possible(not legs/boots), and max rolling everything.
And you wont be able to max roll every flat source *while also maxing other stats/maxing every %dmg slot source and covering the other stats on the item, it just doesn’t happen on 14 slots - even if we ignore the ± value error display GT doesn’t factor in but seeds does.
*Speaking from the perspective of someone that has once spawned like 12 tabs worths of a single item trying to get max rolls one everything. - there will always be a bit of give or take, couple % under, speed rolls suffering, or especially resist (for some reason), and that’s ignoring some stuff just seemingly can’t ever max roll “at the same time”(weapons in particular seem hard to not tie a few under if the other is maxed)
Why people even discuss max rolled items? How many times you need to craft one item even to get max rolls on every possible stat? That should be an insane number and totally not worth it. When I craft a build, usually make a few copies of each item. And stuff like armour/set pieces, I am talking 3 or 4, more for off-hands. How’s that different than having 4 pieces of legit farmed gear and choosing to keep just the best rolled one?
Most stats also have very little impact on the actual performance. Something like an extra 55% damage on a gear slots combined is a deal-breaker, really? I wouldn’t even bother spawning more gear to get that. Only stats that makes any real difference are conversion and % CDR, to less extent physical resistance. But that’s an overall problem of the game, rather than this collection of builds. When you see 100% conversion to something (like Gladiator’s belt) you don’t expect a flexible number and have lower values.
At the end of the day, this topic have a dedicated scoring system, which takes into account multiple parameters, including gear score. The system isn’t perfect of course and we know it. But, focusing on item rolls and using flawed methodology isn’t exactly the definition of a constructive criticism.
For Mythical Tinker’s Ingenuity there are about 46 835 712 000 possible combinations of its stats, so might take a while to get either the worst or best variation
Though Ludrigan’s Hat seems to only have about 699 840 variations, so that one is actually almost feasible
Realistically we don’t care about all stats, we usually want 1-2 stats to be very high end while trying to get the rest somewhere between not terrible and great, leaving us with a much larger pool of items we are happy with
You can’t create specifically max or min rolled items in GD stash. Maybe this is worth mentioning since not everyone uses GD stash. You can only spawn a randomly rolled copy of an item over and over until you get rolls you are satisfied with.
Stashing a build basically simulates a X hours of farming experience. Of course, if you roll like double rare pet affix on MI that has no pet bias you simulate close to infinite hours of farming experience.
For stashing my builds, as general guidelines, I used these numbers of spawned items:
30 or sometimes even more set items since you can reroll sets in game and you should invest your resources in legit play into rerolling the set items for best results
~24 copies of regular drop legendaries. Regular endgame play nets you dozens of legendaries and you should always keep the best copies of legendaries you find
much fewer copies of specific drop legendaries, depending on the severity of the farm
For alkamos i still used 8 or 10 copies of each. Despite largely boosted drop chances of the rings, getting 8-10 copies of each would take A LOT of time: if a speedrun to Alkamos takes 2 mins, and the drop chance is 3%, it takes over an hour for an expected one ring drop and combined over a day of playtime to get 8-10 copies of both. Reason for this is two fold: 1) Alkamos rings are pivotal items for a build, they have many needed rolls and you should use the majority of your farmtime to get better copies of them 2) the rings are used or can be used in a HUGE variety of builds, so getting good pairs of them will pay of in playing other builds later
6-15 copies of single rare MI with specific affixes, depending on the ease of farm and importance of specific affixes
In realistic farm you will never get 15 copies of a specific prefix+suffix MIs, and you should never try to. BUT. In realistic farm you always encounter some double rare copies of needed MIs or very strong copies with slightly different affixes that are close to or even better than the item that was used in a top20 builds. So the process of spawning large amounts of specific prefix+suffix MIs tries to simulate realistic farm where the player sometimes gets this exact item but with worse roll but sometimes gets a double rare item or a well rolled item with another combination of affixes that nets similar value
As you can see, Korba, the top1 build, had to spawn a lot of pricey items and requires quite a bit of farming from a legit player to get results similar to what we got with GD stash. But this fact is reflected in the lower than avg gear score of the build in the end rating.
These rules i used to spawn gear on my builds and to my understanding others used smth very similar. Whether this process simulates dedicated realistic farming or not - up to others to decide.
Items with seed 0 are min-rolled (sometimes even min - 1 I think) and it was used by Paikis.
When you go to Blacksmith and check out blueprints, you see stats of 0 seed items
In Titan Quest items with seed 0 had maximum stats iirc (or maybe it was FFFFFFFF)
