Grim Misadventure #27: A Number Crunch

Grim Dawn Development Updates
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Welcome back to Grim Misadventures! First, a quick update on our upcoming patch: build 12 went into closed testing last week, but we uncovered some issues that need to be resolved before it is ready for the public. Build 12 is primarily a performance and bug fix patch, but it also includes some major improvements to gameplay and some minor content additions, mainly in equipment.

It’s time to move on to bigger and better things though! A future update will include a significant rebalance of our itemization. In a typical development cycle, you would not normally even experience this step, but seeing as many of you have already had your hands on the game, it seemed appropriate to give you a bit of a heads up on what is coming next. Depending on when the overhaul is completed, you can expect these changes to go through in either B12 or B13.

Currently (B11), the balance between the different item tiers is skewed heavily towards green (rare) and blue (epic) items, and there are ongoing discussions about the viability of rare randomly-generated items over hand-crafted epics. Yellow (magic) items fall off the radar very quickly, essentially turning into trash of a different shade.

This is not the balance we are aiming for. We do not want there to be a power glut in the early levels, as players currently often experience in the 14-20 range. When we get the pace right, players will always have a feeling that their next jackpot is just a boss/chest away and the item hunt is always going strong. After some discussion, we came up with a plan of action and have been tweaking items and loot tables to achieve something closer to our ideal.

Magic Items (yellows)

Magical affixes are going to escape the balancing scythe unscathed.

The design intent for magic items is to provide you with not just low level gear, but also basic combinations of stats in significant quantities. Magic affixes are also used in conjunction with rare affixes to create green quality prefix + suffix combinations.

A yellow item will never have more than 5 stats on it, but most prefix + suffix combinations will have 2-3. Though yellow items do not offer many stats, the value of the stats they do provide should remain competitive throughout the game. Our yellows can provide some powerful bonuses that you do not usually expect from magic items in ARPGs. Players who want to maximize a specific stat (ex. % fire damage) may find that sometimes their best option may actually be a yellow item.

Rare Items (greens)

Rare affixes are going through the biggest changes in B12/13.

In B11, rare affixes had a very high stat budget, making them outclass yellows with ease. We also attempted to balance our itemization with just one tier of rare affixes that would handle the entire 1-50 span of the game. It became evident very early on that this was not going to work. Rare items became too powerful in the 1-30 range, but quickly lost their potency as we got closer to the level cap of 50 (greens were tuned as if they were level 35 affixes).

In the future, rare affixes are going to be split into 2-3 tiers, creating natural highs and lows. In addition, most rare affixes will lose at least one of their attributes at lower levels, which they will regain at higher levels. As for their balance, the budget for rare affixes is being cut significantly to bring them more in line with yellows. You will still find greens to be potent upgrades with unique on-hit effects and stat combinations you will not find on magic items, but the gap between yellows and greens is going to be significantly smaller, with magic affixes out-competing rare affixes in potency where they fall behind in quantity.

Double rare items will still represent some of the most potent collections of stats in the game, and their drop rates will remain extremely low. We intentionally did not place any restrictions on what rare prefixes and suffixes can be matched so that you can hunt for those immensely synergizing (and satisfying) combinations.

Epics (blues)

Epics are going through similar (though perhaps not as drastic) changes as greens in B12/B13.

In B11, epics enjoyed a lot of great perks. They had higher base stats (armor/dps) than regular items. Their budget was very high and several attributes were considered free, not counting against the budget at all. Magic items were not remotely close in power to what you could find on an epic.

In the future, epics will still start with above-average core stats, immediately separating them from the pack, but their modifiers are going to be brought in line with yellows. You will still find epics that offer higher bonuses than magic affixes, but now this bonus will be penalized against the item’s budget, reducing its other stats to match. Beyond higher base stats, epics will still offer stats not normally seen on magic items, unusual stat combinations, unique on-hit effects, and granted skills.

Witchstalker Current vs New

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And it’s not all bad…Molten Walkers 2.0!

Overall Balance
It is easy to line up item tiers and say that Magic < Rare < Epic < Legendary, but ultimately this does not result in interesting choices. Once you are decked out in all Rare items, suddenly Magic items become trash. When Epics become the norm, everything below may as well be toggled off. This sort of progression may be appropriate for an MMO where the endless trudge through tiers of gear powers player motivation, but we do not think it fits in an ARPG. When the choice between Magic/Rare/Epic is muddled with variety, then we have finally reached a balance.

As with anything in game development, this is going to be an iterative process and there will be pain (nerfs), but ultimately we hope that these changes will bring you an enriched ARPG experience!

That wraps up today’s update. You can expect our next Grim Misadventure on 08/19/13!

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I like the fact that yellows will have the possibility of having a high single stat that significantly augments a character and thus may be chosen over a green which could only give several small boosts (in the lower tier). I have already noticed this trend with health affixes.

Seeing as you have used a sharp razor on greens and blues affixes I hope you will consider not nerfing the drop rate significantly, especially with the blues.
Regarding this, as a side point, I notice that the rng could use some tweeking. It seems to cycle through the blue items so that all you find over a given period of time are multiple copies of the same item… either this, or the balance is really heavily skewed to 1-2 item types.

Lastly I hope this re balance has taken HC into consideration. It is not so easy to get a character decked out in rares due to item loss at death. All of my 20+ hc builds are still using 2-3 magics at least.

Obviously there is always going to be a chinese farm in the crowd who will spend 4 hours loging in and out to reset the vendors and so forth but i do not think he is the norm yet. You guys already had the balance pretty close, for HC atleast, and if you don’t go too far with this re balance I think it should be an improvement.

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I think the proposed changes are foor the better, I admit, that yellows can be crashed as trash very early on, especially if you are good enough to find a green or two, as they are just pointless keeping. a rebalance to keep yellows for longer, is a good thing, so I fully agree with this change

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Could you elaborate on this? What levels do you experience this at, and what items are you seeing repeatedly?

Thanks!

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Most recently it has been the bolt spitter crossbow and the berserker cowl which I have found multiples of between lvl 13 and 20.

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Well thought out and makes sense to me. Will have to see what it feels like in the real world before I pass judgement. I kinda like the tier balancing now but with just a few minor tweaks on Legendary and Epic gear.

Thx for the UPdate.

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This is definitely the most satisfying update you have released so far. Part of why i love titan quest is that epic items are not the standard gear to wear. magic and rare are more than just low level gear. Thank you for keeping grim dawn this way.

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I guess I’m in the majority here, as I find this update very, very disappointing.

Part of progression to me, and what makes games like Diablo 2 AND World of Warcraft so great, is seeing the progression your character makes in moving from one color of items to the other.

I’m familiar with classic Diablo 2, and I know that in many cases pre-LOD that players were decked in rares. This changed, in my opinion, for the better with the Lord of Destruction expansion, where players moved primarily to set items, rune word items, and unique items. It’s a logical sense of progression if one color, or tier if you want to call it, of items is more rare than another.

If my understanding is correct, you’re saying in this thread that yellow items will have the highest bonus to maybe one or two particular attributes on an item, while blue/green will have more attributes that are slightly lower?

No thanks. Not really interested in running around with a Solael’s build fully decked in yellow because thats how I can get the most +Chaos% damage. I’d MUCH rather find ultra rare blue/purple items that do so instead of sifting through 5 million more yellow items to get the perfect +150% chaos damage roll and then ignoring all subsequent blue/purple/green drops in the future (other than maybe checking stats to see if I should stash/sell it) because my build can achieve the most damage via yellows.

Why not make the blue’s and purple’s have HUGE range for their attributes when they’re rolled? Here’s what I think would be much cooler… Item names fictitious, just follow the general idea.

Yellow item - Arbalest of Chaos
12-24 Damage
+25-75% Chaos Damage determined on roll when item drops or is created.

Green item - Arbalest of Chaos
12-24 or 12-36 damage. Spawns with 12-24 75% of the time, 12-36 25% of the time.
+25-100% Chaos Damage. (Spawns in the 25-75% range 75% of the time, 76-85% range 15% of the time, and 86%-100% range 10% of the time.

Blue Item - Chaos Injected Arbalest
12-24, 18-36, or 24-52 damage. 12-24 damage 75% of the time, 18-36 15% of the time, 24-52 10% of the time.
+40-150% Chaos Damage. (Spawns in the 40-80% range 75% of the time, 81-130 range 15% of the time, 131-150 range 10% of the time.

Obviously these numbers are just for reference and don’t provide any sort of concrete idea of what I think values/ratio’s/averages or anything else should realistically be, it’s more about the idea. Could you imagine how difficult it’d be to roll a 24-52 damage, 150% chaos damage Chaos Injected Arbalest? I’d much rather enjoy trying to do that with a blue tier item than a yellow. You know what the great thing is though? If I’m playing a Blitz soldier and I FOUND the aforementioned perfectly rolled Chaos Injected Arbalest, even if it was a level 20 item, I’d be EXTREMELY tempted to make a Solael’s build JUST to use my new crossbow. THAT is what Diablo 2 got right, and one of the many things that added to its replayability and why D2 is the greatest “hunt for items” game ever created.

Let me be excited to see a blue chaos item drop, even if I already have a maxed out chaos damage yellow item. Let there be potential for the blue version to be FAR, FAR superior. Why even have item tiers if for specific builds the color is worthless because your item needs specific statistics? Instead, create enough blue/purple items that their options in that item tier for every theoretical build. Thats what these games are all about… Collecting, building, and rerolling new characters.

Diablo 2’s replayability comes from the fact that if I’m playing a Barbarian and I find a Windforce, I can either A) Sell my bow for an insane amount of items/currency to further fund my barbarian’s progression or B) take the best bow in the game and roll an Amazon, going through the game all over again with the possibility of finding another item that will make me want to create a new character or try a completely new build.

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I suppose another example may be in order as you are jumping to conclusions. The balance between these different combinations will shift with levels, so this is just a theoretical snapshot.

An existing level 20 epic Focus item:

Theoretical level 20 rare+rare Focus item:
Destroyer’s Fleshbound Tome of Wildfire
+42% Fire Damage
+25% Fire Resist
+12 Spirit
10% Chance of: 195 Burn Damage Retaliation over 3 Seconds
5% Chance of:
40 Fire Damage Retaliation
45 Burn Damage Retaliation over 3 Seconds
+1 Energy Regeneration
-15% Skill Recharge

Theoretical level 20 rare+magic Focus item:
Destroyer’s Fleshbound Tome of Scorching
+44% Fire Damage
+15% Fire Resist
5% Chance of:
40 Fire Damage Retaliation
45 Burn Damage Retaliation over 3 Seconds
+1 Energy Regeneration
-15% Skill Recharge

Theoretical level 20 magic+magic Focus item:
Resistant Fleshbound Tome of Scorching
+36% Fire Damage
+22% Fire Resist
+1 Energy Regeneration
-15% Skill Recharge

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I like it. I’m a big TL2 fan and this update seems to be somewhat analogous to what TL2 has for itemization. You often have interesting decisions to make regarding your gear, equipping an item simply because it’s part of a higher echelon isn’t necessarily the best decision. Certainly makes the loot hunt and gearing process a bit more interesting.

I’m in total agreement that completely linear gearing like an MMO is probably not a good fit for an ARPG.

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Sounds good, I look forward to seeing it in action. Loot should hold far more value now. Gonna have to start paying attention of yellow names.

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I don’t mean to be contentious but that sounds very different from the D2 I remember. I’ve played hundreds of hours of D2 and LoD through various patches up until 1.10 and playing an untwinked character, there are often times when you have to change out lower level uniques for blue or even white items in order to maintain viable base stats. In preparing for nightmare, white 3-socketed ancient armor was a good way to boost resists. There were a bunch of semi-useless uniques / set iems too that just weren’t as good as a socketed white or blue by the time you often found them.

It is also depended on what your character needs. Sometimes it was better to have a blue that just gave you a ton of resist over a bunch of other lesser stats.

If you got one the better uniques, then that generally rivaled everything but it usually took a ton of farming in the mid to late nightmare / hell to deck yourself out like that.

So, while you give D2 as an example of what you want to see, we’ve actually undertaken these balancing changes partly to bring loot closer to what I enjoyed and thought worked well in D2.

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Arakias, i think your misunderstanding what was in this update. What is happening is that the top level uniques and sets are not the standard of what you wear at high levels. A good rare combo or rare/magic combo could be just as good as a unique.

And I dont know what Grim Dawn has planned but in titan quest the relics and charms could not be used on uniques or sets. this way magic and rare items are not just trash because you can enchant them with a stat you choose.

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I am not sure I like this update…at all. It feels VERY disappointing on paper.

Stats aside (though I found this silly move not to follow the logic line of colours, really…), who would want to run with a character wearing uniformly/forgettable designed yellow loot instead of unique-looking stuff?

I may be speaking just for me here, but I love looking badass and that’s one of my reasons for the item hunt. =/

15

Hey, nice to hear all these changes. As I was perusing the information, I became ever so slightly concerned as to whether or not monster infrequents (MIs) were still in the game. Are they considered a rare item, or are they something completely different

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I fear many of you have jumped to a conclusion that yellows will be better than greens and above…I am pretty sure that is not the message.

The message is that you should have the possibility to roll a yellow that is very good for your character. This has two results: 1) greens and above stay rare and 2) the yellows cannot be dismissed solely due to the fact that they are yellow. You will be forced to reflect when surrounded by yellows whether or not it is trash or actually something useful for your toon.

A big problem in TQ is that at one point you get some greens and blues and from that point onward, you never look twice at a white or yellow drop. Sometimes, you can go quite far without finding a green or above and you end up finding yourself struggling cause your gear sucks. In GD, you can continually upgrade your gear from yellow to yellow because yellows do not all suck and because as you progress your level, the yellows also progress.

To me, this sounds all good. It might even be capable of making yellows persist as viable gear options in epic and beyond since the yellows will roll with affixes that are tiered based on level.

It is not a complete nerf of green and above, but rather an injection of good stats into yellows so that there is more chance of finding something worth equipping when you do not find a green and if you are lucky, you might find a yellow with perfect affixes and then socket it and end up with something that makes you keep that yellow over a green. It does not mean all yellows beat all greens, just that the possibility exists for you at one point to have a yellow that you like better than a green that you find.

Hope that was clear…

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I don’t know, man… I am taking stuff out of the context, but still, the message seems to be there:

Anyway, I don’t know what’s bad about the way it was till now… I am not sure if you all just do get you are getting that well equiped just because you probably just farm at “max” level in the alpha. You will never get so well equiped (all blues/greens) in the full game at lvl25, unless you just stop at Warder and farm him for some unknown reason…

You will get one or two greens/blues on the way to lvl25 (I did in alpha), and the rest will be yellow, and you will just keep upgrading your gear with yellows and random rares further on, I can’t see why you would not with the way it is set now… yellows will still be useful until you are at higher levels (speaking from TQ experience, which is similar to GD) and you will get all greened/blued/purpled.

What’s wrong with that? I thought it’s a natural way of a gear progression, like it was in D2/TQ…why else would there be the colour distinction if there weren’t any significant differences… I hate myself for saying that, but I would rather have lower green/blue/purple drops than this “all items will have similarly powerful stats” s**t and yellow-overpowerfulness.

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I assume that your ultimate gear set will still be greens and above. It is just that the journey to that gear set will be filled with you being happy to equip many different yellows along the way. Occasionally, you will actually keep a yellow over the better colors because it has stats that help you more.

With TQ, after you play long enough, you know the names of the affixes. So you will be on the lookout for the loot you want and there will be yellows worth picking up (for more than iron) cause you are looking for a prefix or a suffix or a combo that you like. In addition, if you have equipped something you like, but it was 5 levels ago, you can still be on the lookout for that same item but at a higher level with better stats.

Maybe this is a problem with too many people in alpha. If this was all done behind the scenes and was ready and released as final, no one would know the better. But since you are all playing the game during development, you think it is a nerf or a sacrilegious change.

I not only trust Crate to do the right thing, but I have also had recent playthroughs where I think I can feel this idea working in a positive manner, so I support it. Of course, opinions will vary and not everyone will love it, but give it a chance at least and do not dismiss it on the basis of the “color theory” alone.

19

To me, that is pretty contradictory. Now you could argue that players won’t ONLY want a specific stat. True, a Solael’s ranged build might also want to stack cunning, attack speed, etc… but many builds WILL stack particular stats. I’ll be extremely, extremely disappointed if my end game item setup EVER involves more than one or two extremely lucky yellow roll items. I’d rather have dynamic, creative items that lend many passive and direct stat/ability gains. In my opinion, the green items are on the right track. The ones that can summon hounds, lightning orbs, fireballs… That sort of stuff, to me, should be on harder to find blue/purple items and ultimately trump yellow and even green quality items, especially yellow.

Perhaps I’m being too worrisome, and don’t really realize what the true plans are. If you’re saying that in the early game, say normal mode, yellow items will compete, that’s fair. I can appreciate and enjoy that. You’re right, that was the case in D2, but the reasoning is that players typically weren’t “farming” until they got to later acts, or until there were particular gold/green items or runewords that their build depended heavily upon that had to be farmed… or I suppose purchased, if you were wealthy from farming prior to needing said item. (T-stroke for javazons, buriza for mid level bowazons, various poison daggers for poison strike/nova necro’s)… actually, rather than provide you with a ton of examples, I implore you to check this link - http://diablo.gamepedia.com/Class_Builds_(Diablo_II)

Now, go through a few of the builds there, and tell me how many of the ones that DO include item suggestions ever mention using a white/yellow item. None, because more towards the end game nearly every build relies on +skills/allskills, FCR, IAS, and other combinations that can only be found on insanely godly (as in 1 in a million) rares, or unique/set items. Let’s face it, past normal, the only time anyone is EVER using a rare item in D2 was way back in the day when people used rare polearms/spears for ww barbs, or on their jewelry. Now I guess you could argue this whichever way you like, was it that balance in the jewelry slots was more true across the “item tier” board, or was it that there weren’t enough unique/set jewelry pieces that could compete with well rolled rares? I choose the latter. I’d rather have an amazingly rolled unique/set item than an amazingly rolled rare.

I’ve always enjoyed your insight on what makes Diablo 2 one of the greatest games of all time, and almost certainly the best ARPG of all time, and in retrospect after reading your post and thinking about it more, I understand what you’re saying, but I think it should primarily be applicable to lower levels.

In fact, I’d even go as far as referencing one of your old posts on what makes Diablo 2 amazing, and how you could be potentially deviating from what you yourself described as something truly special about Diablo 2.

You stated that probably the greatest thing about Diablo 2 is being able to play for 15 minutes and feeling accomplished. Well actually said a lot more than that but that is the TLDR version. In my opinion, something that aided in this was that you WERE only looking for green/gold items unless they were wands, staffs, rings, amulets, etc eventually. You didn’t even care to look at a rare sword, helmet, gloves, because you knew that they were garbage no matter what they rolled in comparison. Is this a bad thing? To me it’s not. To me it made it easier to sift through the garbage and continue on in my adventures looking for that next amazing drop, as opposed to scanning through the 14 yellow items Mephisto dropped to see if any of them would be an upgrade to my gold/green/runeword item.

I don’t want to come across as negative, as I’m attempting to yield constructive criticism. Like many others, I myself am looking for the game that Diablo 3 had me on the edge of my seat waiting for, but failed to deliver. Grim Dawn is a great, great game even in its current early state and could easily accomplish everything you’re setting out for it to do. Keep up the hard work.

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A great update, this is the kind of info I like to read about! I’m glad greens are getting more spread out, having them always balanced around lvl35 is boring.

The idea that a yellow affix can be better than green was also in TQ. Remember the hunt for a Stonebinder’s Cuffs of Alacrity? Arguably one of the most overpowered armbands in any ARPG ever. Yet there are more powerful green suffixes available, but they don’t outclass this yellow one:
of Alacrity: +35% Attack Speed
of the Glade: +20% Pierce Damage, +50% Health Regeneration, 8% Chance to Avoid Projectiles, +35% Less Damage From Beast
of the Gryphon: +21% Elemental Damage, 12 Elemental Damage, +14% Attack Speed
of Trickery: +15% Attack Speed, 8% Chance to Dodge Attacks

The reason is that a yellow affix gets one really high attribute, while greens get multiple powerful ones at a lower maximum value. Sometimes you only care about one specific attribute and the yellow affix is better.

Another example is the bonus damage prefixes on weapons. There are some nice percentage bonuses available in green, but the flat values from yellow are still really good. And sometimes the flat bonus can even be better, if you already have lots of percentage bonuses on other gear.
Colossal : 35-53 Bonus Damage
Relentless : 18% Damage, +20% Attack Speed
Titanic : +24% Damage, +10% Strength

The end result is that most of the time you will want green gear, but yellow’s never really become obsolete. One yellow item can fill a void when your collection of greens is lacking one stat.