Is grinding for loot really a good mechanic?

Grim Dawn Ideas and Feedback
1

What does hiding legendaries behind a grindwall really do?

I’d understand if sets were behind challenge walls, but grind alone seems more like an archaic action rpg tradition only necessary when lacking sufficient content.

BTW, I enjoy Grim Dawn and think this aspect is good enough, especially with the viability of some less gear-dependent builds (retaliation warder), but I’m more arguing against the entire practice for action RPGs and loot-grinders in general.

Like, imagine if the entire markovian set was behind a fancy boss or area.

Or, imagine that once you hit level 80, you get one set from a special vendor.

I guess I’m just asking if there is actually value to keeping items behind a grind wall. I know it’s tradition at this point, but is it merely a holdover from an archaic need to spoof content with randomness and time-sinking instead of having more “actual content”?

It’s not a huge problem for Grim Dawn, I suppose. (It’s really not a problem, considering crucible drops.) So, let’s maybe open this up to the genre in general. As a huge contrast to get an idea for what I mean, consider Overwatch. It’s the style of game where you can literally sit down on a fresh account and demonstrate any level of skill from the starting gate, with zero time-based barriers on your ability to express your skill.

2

Even bigger reason this isn’t a problem for Grim Dawn in particular - You can just hack in shit if you think that makes the game better for you. I know I will hack a legendary set in once my toon hits 75 or 80.

3

I don’t like the randomness when I need a specific upgrade and just won’t drop it.

I like the system in DD the best where you would always know where to go for a specific pet or weapon and then farm until you get a really good version (negative projectile speed or dwarf sized swords…). GD kinda has that with MIs so I would simply enjoy way more MIs so you can target farm things for your build.

To your question I think ARPGs without some randomness would be way too short. It is also a good motivation to go for that perfect double affix MI.

4

I actually would be quite happy with your version (farming for “just-the-right-one!”).

It seems to provide the benefits of grind (if you want the particular thing and you don’t mind repetition, there’s your content) without as much harm (if you just need the +3 to the right skill with nice resistances and you want to complete the set, BAM, you’re good).

5

A large part of the point to making a portion of items hard or time-consuming to get is to serve a market of people who want to work more for their shiny objects. Believe it or not, lots of players don’t like what I understand is the current way D3 works.

Grim Dawn caters to the opposite end of the ARPG spectrum - people who want built variety, mechanical depth, gear that feels and is important, exceptional challenges, and a game economy designed around single-player (otherwise we’re also mostly talking about PoE).

Variety in how games work, including the time taken to acquire gear, only improves the ARPG market. Players can find a game that suits them. New players can be drawn into the genre via something smooth and mild then go on to enjoy something with more of whatever they like about ARPGs. Without that kind of variety all games start to look similar - catering to the common denominator.

1 Like
6

Perhaps it is an archaic feature of ARPG’s whose time has come. Maybe/maybe not.

The wonder of this game, is if you don’t like something you can mod it, or use a mod. You can use mamba’s GDStash to craft a Legendary. Note it’s still randomly generated, but at least you can do it multiple times.

7

What is the alternative, drop everything during one playthrough and finding a new unique every 5 minutes ?

I am not sure what the difference between a grind and a challenge wall is. A challenge wall to me is just a wall you have not grinded enough for already to be able to tackle it, so just a different name for more grind

8

Challenges usually have a certain setup and some sort of system, also you may need to use a strategy or develop some mechanical skill to overcome it.

Grind is usually more mindless and repetitive, so it feels less rewarding.

9

Is it? Once you get the item you wanted? I’d think that would be like “holy f**k! Yeah!” :slight_smile:

You worked hard to find the item - the hours of grind - you get it - yawn? Doesn’t seem right. :slight_smile:

10

I’ll address both. For the first point, let’s suppose that is what I mean. How is that really different than waiting 5 hours? I think the amount of time it takes is pretty meaningless outside of the waste of time I must incur. If I want to play Grim Dawn for 5 hours because I like it, that’s great. If I feel obligated for a piece of equipment, that’s not great. I’d hope the game draws me in using more than a mere skinner box.

As for the second point, here’s an example. A challenge wall doesn’t just mean “a hard boss”. Sure, I can play until I have high level and health to beat a boss, but if the boss is designed well, maybe I merely read the attacks and spec correctly to beat the boss, using my cleverness instead of my willingness to invest loads of time.

(This is actually why I also wanted bosses to allow stuns, even if a limited form. The battle should have a way to be a challenge that doesn’t boil down to time-investment.)

11

> Is grinding for loot really a good mechanic?

Good question, actually. I think it’s not a good mechanic and personally like games where grind is present but not so important and you could get things done without it with skill alone. Dark Souls, for example.

Grim Dawn though isn’t that kind of game and if you take away grind from it the game would be rather bland. What you suggest is not unsimilar to Diablo 3, actually, where basic set items are more or less available but grinding for items with perfect stats might take a lot of time.

It’s fine for Diablo 3 because Diablo 3 is a very action-oriented game. GD isn’t.

EDIT:
Also one set from special vendor sounds very much like Hedrigg’s gifts in D3 seasons.

EDIT2: Overwatch is a terrible example because it’s a 100% skill-based game.

12

More generally, can we conceive of Grim Dawn as the style of action RPG where getting things done with skill is actually how it works?

For the very few end-game builders, that is the game. (Edit: They create their own challenges, but it amounts to “look, this can crucible 150”.) I don’t think GD is bland without grind. Grind itself is bland, to me. (Very few people get to experience the less bland aspect of the game because of how much time it requires.)

I guess I’d just like you to expand on what you mean, Stupid Dragon.

13

but once you find every item by level 80 ad complete the main quest by level 85, what is there left to do ?

Certainly nothing for that char, maybe try another build if you like the game…

A challenge wall doesn’t just mean “a hard boss”. Sure, I can play until I have high level and health to beat a boss, but if the boss is designed well, maybe I merely read the attacks and spec correctly to beat the boss, using my cleverness instead of my willingness to invest loads of time.

and this is where I tend to draw the line between an RPG and a a FPS or something like that. In an (A)RPG it should be about the build and items, not player skill.

So speccing correctly is ok, but reading attacks correctly etc. should be limited (not saying it should not exist at all, but definitely to a lesser degree)

(This is actually why I also wanted bosses to allow stuns, even if a limited form. The battle should have a way to be a challenge that doesn’t boil down to time-investment.)

not sure how stunning bosses helps here, other than investing your time into getting some other items than you otherwise would :wink:

14

No, I want them to get done via a good build and good gear, not via how skilled I am at operating a mouse. If I wanted that I’d play an action game

15

I already gave Dark Souls as a perfect example of an action RPG that balances skill vs grind well in my opinion. Especially Dark Souls 2, where I don’t have to grind at all unless I want to use some rare drop weapon for aestetical reasons.

If you mean isometric ARPGs then no, don’t know any. Some of them are better in that regard, some worse. Basically the condition is being very awareness and action-oriented and giving players means to avoid damage rather than just gearcheck it.

For the very few end-game builders, that is the game.

Grim Dawn is very much about tinkering with builds rather than mechanical challenges. It does have quite noticeable awareness element, but overall on sliding scale of grind vs skill GD is near the grind end.

I guess I’d just like you to expand on what you mean, Stupid Dragon.

Overall I don’t understand what you’re getting at, so I return this one to sender.

16

You feel really good when you complete a hard challenge and maybe even during that. But you can grind for hours without any reward and there is less reward during the grind, is what I meant. Because you can’t see your progress nor are you guaranteed to get a good drop, hence it’s less fun.

17

First, don’t let me frustrate anyone. I’ll argue kinda for the sake of it and I don’t want to piss someone off.

Second, the answer overall might just be that I have issue with the arpg format to some degree and that’s that.

The above said, let’s go!

[u]"once you find every item by level 80 ad complete the main quest by level 85, what is there left to do ?

Certainly nothing for that char, maybe try another build if you like the game…"[/u]

Well, I think such a character still has the opportunity to try to beat the crucible, beat nemesis bosses, etc. Only after all content is cleared on the highest difficulty can the character really be done. This is true either way. The only difference is the amount of time to get there.

[u]" So speccing correctly is ok, but reading attacks correctly etc. should be limited (not saying it should not exist at all, but definitely to a lesser degree)"

"No, I want them to get done via a good build and good gear, not via how skilled I am at operating a mouse. If I wanted that I’d play an action game "[/u]

I want to backpedal a little bit, but not completely. I agree that an important distinction that I actually like out of grim dawn is that I don’t have to twitch react to bullshit. My strategy and not my reaction is the important thing. That’s good. However, I think there is still room for a middle ground. I don’t know how, exactly, so maybe table this for now. Frankly, the game is already close to what I’m describing. (You pick the right resists and skills for the boss or you lose.)

"Grim Dawn is very much about tinkering with builds rather than mechanical challenges. It does have quite noticeable awareness element, but overall on sliding scale of grind vs skill GD is near the grind end. "

I think that players without the time to grind don’t get to experience the tinkering with builds element to a significant degree. However, I’m realizing that I’m opening this discussion up to “should the balance be for those with little investment or for those who are hardcore” and I’d be hypocritical to think balance should be entirely around noob-accessibility. I guess I’d ask how investment can be required outside of a clock. I don’t know.

So, maybe I’m just backing off a bit overall. In fact, if I instead view character levelling as the challenge to do well in the face of grind/equipment limitations, that makes the game more fun. It still leaves a slightly bad taste in my mouth, though, since that framing means I’m having fun despite mechanics.

18

I am not particularly interested in completing the Crucible, Nemesis are fine, waves of attacks I do not care for. Maybe one day I will complete it just for the heck of it, but to me the end of the game completing the story.

" So speccing correctly is ok, but reading attacks correctly etc. should be limited (not saying it should not exist at all, but definitely to a lesser degree)"

yes, most definitely :wink: One is how you build the char and what gear you have, so not requiring player skill (unless you consider finding a working build to be a player skill), the other does

I agree that an important distinction that I actually like out of grim dawn is that I don’t have to twitch react to bullshit. My strategy and not my reaction is the important thing. That’s good. However, I think there is still room for a middle ground.

I think we are in that middle ground, maybe not dead center though. It’s not like you can walk up to every boss and keep your LMB pressed until it dies, even in the best gear

I think that players without the time to grind don’t get to experience the tinkering with builds element to a significant degree.

I doubt that. I can tinker with builds until the end of Normal and never worry about gear, yet have a build that is reasonably close to what it would be later still, except that it is not dressed in the greatest gear, there are not really many build defining items

19

You know what, since the “game” for most people amounts to beating the story and there is little problem doing that in whatever manner you please, things are probably just fine.

And given that through mods and additional challenges, Grim Dawn lets you branch into what you want the challenge to be (beyond just beating the story), I guess we’re just plain fine as is.

20

I’m not sure what DD is…but having played a game where specific items drop from specific places (Borderlands 2/Pre-Sequel) I DESPISE such systems - especially if they go overboard where any item you actually want will have one main source and be almost unobtainable elsewhere. It encourages the ‘run X boss 1,392 times’ mentality vs exploring about. In GD when I farm usually I’ll run 5-6 different bosses - depending on which MIs I’d like to try for and also a few efficient nemesis finding areas and not feel super penalized for doing it. Knowing that any of the bosses/nems/trash could drop any non-MI item is really freeing.

While I would be down with a few more high value MIs I would hate to see large numbers of epics and legendaries get assigned to bosses because it would greatly restrict that feeling of being rewarded for fighting where you feel like.