I agree with the label being ill-defined. But I disagree with it being meaningless. There’s a difference, right? I might be wrong here, I’mma search a bit.
Your points look better if we put “meaningless” on a spectrum, like you did a while back. Maybe I at least slightly agree with you on that.
But it was Sudoku’s claim that I was arguing against, and I’m confident he meant it in a boolean way. Maybe I should just forget about the boolean meaningless claim and move on to the new meaningless but on a spectrum argument which is yours, which I frankly find more interesting lol
what does coffee label mean?
what does caustic label mean?
are these meanings either well defined or at minimum “universally” defined enough to have meaning/share their meaning?
put that in perspective of “HC viable” and its 0 shared definitions and 100% totally personally applicable definitions
Whether or not you want to argue it being "ill"defined vs not defined at all, at minimum doesn’t change it wont convey even closely convey a potential similar definition to multiple people, or even what the author intended; because it’s so subjective/left up in the air from not agreeing on any elements of even base definition
If the label is so out there hanging in the twilight zone, it’s then yes meaningless to use; there is no shared meaning “anywhere”
again, keep in mind, there is infact 0 shared or established minimum criteria for what “HC viable”, 0 definition is by definition then something having 0 meaning, or being meaningless
put that in perspective of “HC viable” and it’s 0 shared definitions
Woah, careful there, I think that assumption is a bit too bold.
If the label is so out there hanging in the twilight zone, it’s then yes meaningless to use
Unless the label was made to sell something or set some rough expectations, instead of informing something concrete? Selling something and setting expectations can be considered purpose, no?
Edit as a reply to your unmarked edit:
I’m pretty sure that is not absolute 0. I’m pretty sure there are at least people that agree on what builds HC viable and what are not 
it is not, because there is not a single shared criteria for it, anywhere
no
again, you’re trying to twist both the argument and now also the use
it doesn’t change the fact what the intents of the author is, if that “sale” still isn’t even being shared from people not having the same idea of what the label means
and if you wanna go so far as to speculate the intents of the author, we might aswell speculate them being a dick from potentially advertising/“selling” something deliberately as HC viable but other players then dying “as intended”
if anything it just goes to show the importance of the unambiguity of the label, as mentioned earlier, since it might make or break the player enjoyment to more or less severe degrees
you’re assuming no less than i, the difference is my assumption has the foundation that no such list has yet been made/posted
Wait, I think you missed my point.
I was arguing that the label could have other purposes aside from “to inform something concrete about the build”. I gave examples, such as to sell a concept or to set expectations. You gave one as well, which was “to be a dick and troll newer players to die”.
In those other possible purposes, such a label would not be meaningless. Therefore, the claim that the label is meaningless is false. It overgeneralizes. It assumes that the label’s purpose is always to inform something concrete, which is false, and thus the whole argument falls apart.
Edit: Feel free to ask why this,
In those other possible purposes, such a label would not be meaningless
is true, which I assume you’re already going to ask.
yes… it’s literally emphasising the meaninglessness of the label; it having such vastly different interpretations that it’s actively ruining player experience
again, it doesn’t matter what the intents of the author is, when that intent is relying on the very label being meaningless
being able to use something undefined for X purpose does not change that the label is still meaningless and is just easierly used/misused for trolling
the label is still undefined, that very definition makes it meaningless
in the case of trolling if it had XYZ set requirement or criteria one could then mayhaps simply spot from a grimtools or video etc “oh sht this doesn’t obey that criteria ie not living up to the established meaning of the label”
You just contradicted yourself here. You said it was both “meaningless” and “used for something” in the same sentence.
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Friend, trolling newer players, be it by using an ill-defined label or a well-defined one, is a “purpose”. And you said yourself, such ill-defined labels are easier-ly used for trolling. That, for trolls, is meaning! The label is not meaningless for trolls!
Likewise, an enthusiastic build-maker hard selling their build by saying it’s “Hardcore viable” has a purpose for them, which is to sell. The label, for them, is not meaningless.
yes, it is still literally meaningless,
i literally said this earlier, you wanting to argue the use/for the use of something meaningless, doesnt’ change that thing being meaningsless
it has no definition, no agreed upon meaning or interpretation that’s what makes it by definition meaningsless as label, not whether or not it’s used
^this is merely what changes ones personal perspective on to use the label or not, in the case of Sudoku it’s then not
others using it doesnt’ magically attribute some universal or set defined meaning to it, they are just fine using it with whatever personal subjective sentiment one thinks it carries
apply the same rational to anything else, me using the colour blue is not what makes it blue; it having been established as “this is the colour blue” is what makes it blue
What you’re talking about is subjective, not meaningless.
I have a definition for it. Rektbyprotoss has a definition for it. The guy who asked Sudoku has a definition for it. Do we, all of Grim Dawn players, collectively agree on what it is? No. As of now, it is subjective. But not meaningless.
no it’s not, it’s literally objective
eg the example with blue
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now i urge you to reread Sudoku’s comment and see what he actually said
or rather
“meaningless” is clearly explained, while being semantically and grammatically apt used
Friend, I think you need to take a long look at your contradiction here to get what I’m arguing.
In the meantime, I could use a break. Or sleep. Ciao
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What even is this thread?
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