Berserker + Occultist should be Mystic because Occultism and Mysticism are practicly synonyms.
Berserker + Shaman should be Primalist because Shaman has Primal Strike, Primal Spirit… The whole class is designed on primal nature…
Here is a poll where Primalist is winnig for Shaman also…
I still disagree with Primalist for +Shaman. Sure, there’s a lot of “primal” skills, but a Mystic is someone who’s connected to the spiritual side of things. So a Shaman who became more in-tune with the spirits of nature (primal spirits if you will) makes Mystic fit extremely well. Especially considering Berserker is all about the spirits.
Primalist admittedly doesn’t fit Occultist very well, but neither does Mystic for the reasons above. They’re more… Well… Occulty with rituals and stuff, not exactly in-tune with spirits
I thought it was so obvious Primalist should be Berserker + Shaman and Mystic = Berserker + Occultist that it must have been a typo in the list, but after seeing the livestream yesterday I implore developers to consider the name swap because:
The term Primal is all over the text for Shaman already; this is what Crate established as part of the identity and flavor of the mastery. The Shaman skill Feral Hunger: “embrace your primal side”. The Relic Primal Instinct (there it is again) is a Shaman Relic:
In the Berserker mastery description in the Game Guide, Werewolves are described as bloodthirsty (Shaman is a pretty bleedy mastery), and Wereravens as enigmatic. Synonyms for enigmatic include: oracular, mystic (!!!), arcane, occult (!!!), etc… From the livestream yesterday the Wereraven skill mentions Berserker Mystics, and if you want to maximize your Raven-per-Raven ratios, you grab the Storm Spirit Great Raven from the Occultist mastery! The same mastery that mentions the mystical eye of Dreeg.
The still-running poll currently is at 28-4 in favor of Berserker + Shaman = Primalist.
For those that are thinking, hey, wait a minute, what about Chaos, isn’t that a fundamental force in the metaphysical world of Cairn? Yes, along with Aether, I agree, and the word you might be looking for then is perhaps Primordial, not Primal. Primordial = building blocks of the universe. Primal = animals and critters and the wilds and nature.
The weakest part of this argument but that I will include for a fun factoid is the “Mystic” prefix on gear provides +% Spirit, which I think of more as Occultist because of their more strictly magical damage types than Shamans, which have physical and bleed types in addition to lightning and vitality.
I doubt bikeshedding about this will bear fruit. Anyhow, as far as I’m concerned both shaman and berserker represent the most savage and ferocious that masteries have to offer, and “Mystic” evokes images of a mage/caster type of character. While Primalist is more fitting, it represents the lightning/cold side of the archetype which I’m less interested in than playing a crazed and bloodthirsty chaos barbarian.
The best suggestions that I can come up with are “Fanatic” for Berserker/Occultist and something in the direction of “Savage” (or Wildling) for Berserker/Shaman. Alas, “Savage” is a bit value loaded and has negative connotations, not that I mind.
I wasn’t aware this was brought up on the forums already – I was considering making a post about it myself later today. I made a Reddit thread that, as of an hour after posting, seems to have reached the same consensus: the names are better swapped.
I do think this is a trivial issue in the grand scheme of things, but it isn’t a non-issue in my mind. I actually plan to main Berserker+Shaman for an extended playthrough with friends, and it’s absolutely something that will bother me every time I see it.
But unless I’m severely misunderstanding something, your stated desires go against your conclusion regarding the names.
If you want to play a crazed, bloodthirsty Chaos barbarian… you’re better off going +Occultist, not Shaman, for the Chaos damage. Shaman is Elemental and Vitality damage instead, and doesn’t inherently stack with Chaos unless you get damage conversion. So if “Mystic” fits the Chaos image for you, you should be going +Occultist and wanting +Occultist to have that title.
I do see you’re saying, in the end, your point about “Shaman and Berserker being the most ferocious” masteries, and that Mystic doesn’t fit because it’s too caster-esque. Regardless of whether or not some other name, like Wildling, is even better, we’re definitely agreed that of the two current names Primalist is a better fit for the ferocious/savage combination than Mystic.
Not a fan of the underlying assumptions that I draw conclusions based on my desires and that I don’t know what shaman does. I want the name to be neutral enough to not mess with my class fantasy regardless of the build I play, not to cater to my niche taste for unconventional builds. Mystic messes with the fantasy a lot. Primalist messes with it a little. Meanwhile I think Wildling/Barbarian/Savage/etc is fine whether I make a cold caster or a melee bleed build.
No need to get so hostile; I simply pointed out what I perceived as inconsistency and asked for clarification!
If you re-read my message, there’s no assumption you’re drawing conclusions based on your desires. You’ll note the operative word “if” in regards to whether or not you consider Mystic to fit the Chaos playstyle, not a statement as to such.
Furthermore, the fact you dislike Mystic in general because it focuses on caster fantasy over melee fantasy, while Crate’s stated goal for Berserker is to enable either, is exactly the kind of clarification my post asked you for.
Edit: I’m on mobile and make an unfortunate amount of typos. I corrected “not” to “note” here.
As I’ve said before when this came up, I forget where, you could argue both ways for these mastery combinations, but ultimately we went with the reasoning that the Occultist mastery is more attuned to primeval powers and thus a Primalist, while the shaman is more spiritual and thus a Mystic (in a perfect world, Shaman + Berserker would have been a Druid, but we already used that name way back in vanilla GD…something something hindsight 20/20).
These two phrases have been used throughout videogame history and have been interpreted in all sorts of ways. I perfectly understand the logic why you’d want to flip them, but I hope the reverse is also true and why we will not be making the swap.
But it’s going to be weird talking to new players under the Principle of Least Surprise who want to do a primal druid or barbarian build character and telling them that the Shaman mastery with “conjuring their primal powers” in the main description, Primal Strike, Primal Bond, Conjure Primal Spirit skills, text in both Feral Hunger and Wendigo Totem skills mentioning primal, and the class relic Primal Instinct with +1 to Shaman skills is in fact neither of the two masteries involved in Primalist.
You (as in, Crate) have your logic and you’re sticking to it, but this logic creates a lexical contradiction that is present in no other part of the game. It’s not about “videogame history”, it’s about this game’s history. Thus far, Grim Dawn has exclusively–as @anachoret has already pointed out–used the term Primal in its connotations of “wild” or “natural”.
To now introduce the concept equating primal to primeval is based in an understandable real-world logic–but not the logic of Cairn as it has been communicated to players up to this point.
I’m old enough to remember when the devs were dragging players for wanting Wind Devils to function like the Guardians of Empyrion. Something about how being forced to re-summon the devils every few seconds was a key part of the class identity because it felt like whipping up a storm, and it was the player’s fault for not enjoying that… and here we are, years later, with the changes players asked for back then. I’d rather not see another dev three years from now commenting “well, this name would’ve been perfect, but something something hindsight 20/20” a second time, not when the concerns are being raised now.