Not enjoying Sunder at all

[Banes]

@Maska322

As a campaign player, I don’t think there is a single boss that has a sundering attack of a cooldown lower than evade’s cooldown. You can easily dodge sunders with either evade or simply moving your character.

Shambler is a bad example as well, his attacks are so slow you always have your evade ready to dodge the sunder. You can even afford to evade his another nuke and barely lose any health during the entire fight. The fear of sunder is highly exaggerated.

@Banes

In all honesty, I’m used to oldschool games so to me, the reaction time for me feels enough.

Apparently, that part of my statement was ignored, albeit an important one. Continuing, the shambler used sunder a second time, before my dodge cooldown was even halfway down. I dodged the first one, he attacked with normal attacks twice or something, and used his sunder a second time.

I never said that I’m afraid of it. Maybe you are confusing me with someone else. I said that sunder, along with dodging, was a mechanic that wasn’t in the game from the start. While some like its implementation, some others don’t. Call us lazy. I don’t know.

[Banes]

@XandeRoot

But in case of Witcher 2, at least it was a brand new game, so at least I could keep enjoying my W1 experience without any bullshit.

<-That. Overall, I can’t hate Grim Dawn and of course, I have no regrets of buying it. Even with these changes, it still has a special place in the void where my heart used to be, and it will remain as such. The difference is that I put it down. Maybe in time, I’ll learn to embrace that change and enjoy it again. Who knows?

[Crab_Turtle_2112]

This thread is fascinating.

At least with sunder, there is now visual clarity of which abilities put you in danger. Before that, a lot of rr effects were buried in the list of debuffs applied to you and it was very hard to tell which attack was causing it. Sure you could overcap resists and mostly ignore those but on a “normal build” that “the vast majority of people who actually play the game” use, it’s safe to assume that getting below the 80% threshold due to rr was somewhat…frequent? (And people sure as hell didn’t stack enough aether res to overcome bullshit like 50% reduced target res from Anasteria, unless you were pushing deep SR).

Moreover, taking the attack that sunders you in the face does not instantly kill you. The sound cue and visual effect warn you that you are going to take more damage from the next incoming attacks. So if you somehow mess up and get sundered, you can just walk away, use a movement rune, a movement ability, or, god forbid, the dodge button, to get out of the way until the effect wears off, if your character can’t take the spike in upcoming damage.

As for said spike in damage, most sunder effects are about 30% for campaign bosses that have it, which is equivalent to having your resists lowered from 80% to…74%. Cap your res and get some hp and you can just laugh in the face of everything that sunders you in main campaign with a build that isn’t even close to being optimized.

[Norzan]

@mqstout

I’ve literally never died to Viloth before 1.2.

You mean its ultra slow sunder attack that you can see from the other side of the planet? If you die to that or to the boss itself, i don’t know what to tell you. This boss even against a naked character shouldn’t be able to kill it and that’s with sunder applied to that character.

In fact, the power creep all classes and items got should make it so this boss dies so fast that it doesn’t even get a chance to cast sunder.

This is just more and more evidence that is a massive build issue and not a mechanic issue, and yet you are being stubborn on purpose.

@mqstout

People shouldn’t need to have godlike twitch reflexes to play Grim Dawn.

And you don’t need it. You make it sound that the bosses are attacking with two frames attacks, making it nigh impossible to evade when it’s the complete opposite. If anything Zantai has made a lot of these attacks slow and highly telegraped on purpose and he even removed the obnoxious player tracking a lot of these attacks used to have to make it easier to dodge.

[Ceno]

@XandeRoot

Which is good for devs, but not very much for “old farts” like myself. Because GD is no longer the game I and others (a minority, uh huh) enjoyed.

This really just isnt true though.

I genuinely don’t use the Evade mechanic at all for its “intended” purpose. My gameplay (unga bunga with a side of big bonk) hasn’t changed in the slightest between 1.1.9.8 and 1.2.x.x. The only time i push the Evade button is to get from point A to point B quicker.

Y’all are talking like Sunder forces you to change how to play. It doesn’t. If you want to ignore Sunder, you can, you just have to build for it.

[Norzan]

@Ceno

The only time i push the Evade button is to get from point A to point B quicker.

Honestly, this is genuinely the best thing about evade, makes early leveling significantly faster because you get around quicker.

[Maska322]

Shambler fight again, but I don’t use evade and play like I would play before evade and sunder was added. Yes I dodge the slam attack, I have always dodged it and it’s easy to do.

Shambler Fight but I have no reflexes

@mqstout

As for the useless videos up there, this has been there before: Of course there are ridiculous edge-case niche hyper-optimized builds with weird shit.

The build I am playing just started Ultimate difficulty, I recorded the Shambler fight because it was on the way of my progression. Faction gear, some MIs and crafted items, any leveling build can achieve that easily.

[Banes]

@Maska322

Shambler fight again, but I don’t use evade and play like I would play before evade and sunder was added. Yes I dodge the slam attack, I have always dodged it and it’s easy to do.

Again, you misunderstood what you read, unless you are using the shambler randomly. I said that a few mobs use sunder before the dodge cooldown, shabler being one of the examples that came to mind. I really don’t know what you’re trying to prove here.

[Maska322]

Give other examples of bosses sundering faster than evade cooldown and I will verify them.

[Banes]

@Maska322

Give other examples of bosses sundering faster than evade cooldown and I will verify them.

Verify, what? Did anyone asked for any kind verification on something and I missed it? If yes, why would you need more than one? What exactly are you trying to prove?

[eardianm]

Damnit @Maska322 where are these godlike twitch reflexes when we play terraria!?!?

[XandeRoot]

I honestly have no doubt some people are capable tanking even superbosses with Sunder. But look, even before 1.2 I could barely kill Ravager by running away like a little bitch with a build I would consider at least somewhat tanky (Forcewave Warlord; can’t give a link though, GT site seems to be overloaded at the moment). This char would die in about 4 hits. Now imagine if I managed to get Sundered - this would leave me no room for any mistake, and I thought I’m playing an ARPG, not Minesweeper. Most of my characters were also getting killed in SR65 from time to time, simply because I can’t dodge everything in fusterclucks that can happen in SR (those damaging crystals bunched together, ugh).

Also, just to be clear, I was already avoiding some of the dangerous telegraphed attacks (Alex’s meteor, Grava’s Nullify, Benny’s “pincer” and minefield, to name a few) prior 1.2, but like I said, can’t dodge everything everytime…

Now regarding building for Sunder. With almost every major patch I had to adjust at least a few of my builds: sometimes it was just tossing around some augments or components; sometimes I had to remake it completely, if certain item was redesigned for example; and sometimes I had to scrap the build entirely and build something new. Regardless, it was costing me in-game resources, which in turn means real life time spent farming said resources… you get the point.

As of now, I have 39 characters. I don’t have any plans spending days, weeks, or maybe months remaking all of them so that they just could tolerate being Sundered. Not to mention you can’t possibly do that for every class and playstyle (how would you make aether Stun Jacks Defiler super tanky? You can’t!).

And another thing people forget: in 1.2, Sunder isn’t the only “hurdle”, life leech was also nerfed. Sure, existing sources of health regen were buffed to somewhat mitigate this, but zero new sources were added. And I sure as hell love me some health regen builds, especially on casters. But how would you build, for example, an Oppressor for health regen? This class literally has no synergy with it. And there’s a reason why Twin Fangs was (is?) meta.

A’ight I’m done, I think. That was a mouthful…

[MrTek]

@mqstout

People shouldn’t need to have godlike twitch reflexes to play Grim Dawn

I mean, that’s a you problem. Once you know wich attacks do the sunder (which you can see easily from dangerous bosses), it shouldn’t be hard to evade even if you don’t want to accept it.

If you want a really fast game, play Hades. Grim Dawn is far from needing crazy reflexes.

I’ve been watching this thread, I don’t even understand why you keep coming back arguing about it. Most people like the change, and by most i mean over 90-99% of people likes it. It’s not gonna change no matter what you say. Devs will listen if a lot of people don’t like something, but that’s not the case here since only a few dislike the evade + Sunder. If I was you, I would just move on accepting Grim Dawn for what it is or play something else.

Also, as far as I know you never shared any grimtools to any of your builds, because at this point i have seen a lot of poeple claiming their builds are fine while not sharing any link. You won’t be taken as seriouslly by the devs or anyone and you won’t learn if your build isn’t build correctly. I am saying that because I have playtested the last DLC (Forgotten Gods) and there is no way that you give a feedback about a boss being too hard without sharing your build.

[savage1991]

I would be fine with a meme build that could make sr 65/66, killing celestials is already abuse xD

[Fuzzydunlop]

Fighting optional side-content superbosses, endgame pretty much. And then complaining they’re too difficult and do not allow for a mistake.
I mean, it’s not the campaign. Either perfect your dodges, or perfect your stats if you want to try the toptier endgame. Make your mistakes in campaign.
I’ve now played a little bit with sunder and dodge, so far I find it underwhelming. I think any sunder effect should come with a 60% movement speed debuff, of strong DA debuff as well so that you cannot run away either, you have to use the dodge, or you’re likely to get slapped by a crit next.
Now you can also just point and click your way out of many sunders.

@Banes

Did anyone asked for any kind verification on something and I missed it?

I’m guessing he has a nose for bullshit artists and is just checking if some of the claims are true. In this case, you’ve been debunked.

[mqstout]

@MrTek

If you want a really fast game, play Hades

The point is I emphatically don’t. And Grim Dawn is all zoooooooooooooooom now. I have entirely other games for when I do want that style of play. It’s very sad that Grim Dawn’s lost its identity by becoming something else.

[Banes]

@Fuzzydunlop

I’m guessing he has a nose for bullshit artists and is just checking if some of the claims are true. In this case, you’ve been debunked.

Dear Emperor, we have another. Bullshit artists on what sense? On that the shambler used the attack before the cooldown had ended? Well, it did. Had I known that I will meet you and the other guy, I would have kept it on record. Unfortunately, I didn’t have the pleasure of meeting you gentlemen before today. I don’t know why I have to stress this out. Manners. I can start calling you a variety of names if I wish to. Yet, I remain polite.

[Bananow9393]

The player was naked!!

[thomas_zlatko_weizen]

ahh i tried but simply nope can make mods no matter how i try,so is there posibility that you can make havoc both version have passthru

[Banes]

@Fuzzydunlop

I’m guessing he has a nose for bullshit artists and is just checking if some of the claims are true. In this case, you’ve been debunked.

Have I?

@Maska322

Give other examples of bosses sundering faster than evade cooldown and I will verify them.

There you go. It took me five minutes. Check the last 25 seconds, please.

Grim Dawn Shambler

Now both of you gentlemen owe me an apology. And make it a good one. Learn some manners on the way as well. We’re not all 15yo kids.