Paragon level system or something of the sort.

Well,if there is one thing i like in D3 its the feeling that even if you don’t find items,you still feel like progressing.

The idea of an ARPG is of course rerolling and trying new stuff,the gear hunt and that feeling when this damn piece finally drops.

But there is the void in-between,where you mow down monsters and pretty much nothing happens. Path of exile deals with this by having really hard final 5 levels to get(which i don’t want in GD) and D3 got the paragon system.

I think a similar system will greatly improve GD feeling of progress,even if you don’t mind making new builds all the time.

If you are able to “level” up after you reach max level or something,just to increase your life by 0.001% it will IMO still give a sense of progression that i can’t help but feel is currently lacking.

After 650 hours with the game for me personally that is the only gripe i have currently.


Uh, no, just no. Taking forever to reach max level (or whatever is it you need to do to reach max stats) is a sure way to make me stop playing the game altogether.

I will edit my post,i DEFINITELY don’t want it to be like PoE. The level 100 thing currently is fine.

Our philosophy on this topic, and I’ve offered commentary when this had come up before, is that we want there to be a definitive end point to character building. You should be able to look at a character some day and be able to say “yup, this character is done”.

On top of that, an endless progression system is incredibly punishing/discouraging to new/returning players. Nothing like knowing that the only way you’ll catch up to those who had been playing thousands of hours is to play thousands yourself (which effectively means you cannot catch up if they are also still playing).

That indeed is a problem in D3,the powercreep from the paragon system is insane. Can’t argue with that.

Independently of the fact that never-ending Paragon mini-bonuses are not particularly pleasing, I’ve puzzled over these remarks you’ve made before as well. Unfortunately, it seems that a “definitive end point to character building” in GD only comes after you have accumulated sufficient gear, not after you have obtained level 100. Someone who has played the game for thousands of hours will be far, boundlessley far more advanced as yourself, and if that person continues to play GD, you will never catch up. So while your “philosophy” is commendable, it’s not implemented consistently.

As unsatisfying as D3 is in so many ways, it comes much closer to fulfilling your goal there. A character is “finished” very quickly, and not long thereafter obtains all the gear it needs for at least one kind of build it can do. Respeccing is painless. D2 was almost entirely different in that regard. PoE comes closer to the goal without becoming a D3 washout; balancing the carrot that must be there to continue to motivate players to continue (you can reach level 100, it’s just bloody hard; you can get better gear and/or accumulate currency used towards creating it, but the gear you have is still ok) while giving a sense of accomplishment you seem to want. The gap between the point at which you reach 100 / finish game content and the point at which you obtain gear suitable for a sense of accomplishment is much, much larger in GD.

Expect I’m in the minority of players, but for me a character is done when I finish the game. I don’t care if I have the best gear by the end of the game, though I will raid my collection as needed for all my toons at all levels, I only care that my build’s got me to the end of the game hopefully without too many deaths. Nor do I care what anyone else is doing with their characters - the only person I measure myself against is me. If my skill choices have worked, my devotions choices have worked that’s my achievement.

This paragon system sounds like some sort of league table where I’m supposed to measure myself against a player like Dikkie who has over 12,000 hours in the game. Why? While I admire his dedication and applaud his achievement in doing so, I’m not interested in comparing myself to him. GD is mainly a single player game anyway so why would I want to know what other players are doing?

I get that most other players will want to tweak their characters with gear, components, augments to make it the best it can be whether they do that by farming for stuff or whatever. But that’s not for me.

You also have to ask if having such a system would actually encourage more players to play the game to the higher levels. Zantai’s already said that most players only play the game through Normal and then move on to something else. So would it really be a good use of Crate’s time and investment to implement something like that?

It essentially is. Moreover, since newcomers measuring themselves up against players who have 10k+ hours invested up isn’t that fun for newcomers, D3 also implements “seasons”.

For a single player person Paragon has only one implication - you continue to accumulate exp after level 100 and gain stat points, which you could spend on small things in separate interface, like +10 HP, +1 OA, +1 DA etc. This accumulated paragon level carries over to all characters, so it’s not lost when you make a new char.

The whole point though is that you can get the “endgame gear”. For many that will take thousands of hours, but not always. There is a lot of luck involved, you could get the perfect gear pieces in 200 hours instead of 2000 hours on some characters.

Im very pleased with waht we have atm and very thankfull for all these free updates.
But id prefer a system like rifts of diablo 3 thats all with timer to kill em all with random map etc.
A paragon system is an overkill tbh

that does not change the fact that there is an end point, unlike the endless grind that is the paragon system

Someone who has played the game for thousands of hours will be far, boundlessley far more advanced as yourself, and if that person continues to play GD, you will never catch up.

yes you will, once you have BiS items just like he does, he cannot really improve upon that to keep his lead. That is the difference to a paragon system where you really can never catch up

As unsatisfying as D3 is in so many ways, it comes much closer to fulfilling your goal there. A character is “finished” very quickly

that very much depends on how you define finished. People who argue for a paragon system should not also argue for reaching max level as the end of char development, that is just inconsistent.

And if it is not, then D3 never has a finished character in the way GD does.

I think this largely depends on what you consider the threshold of a character is when they are “Done.” to me, its reaching level cap, and having decent enough gear to finish the game (a.k.a. storyline).

For you it seems that its about the gear set. I tend to have a hard time playing D3 past a week or two after getting my gear set. I’m actually quite dissapointed in the direction they went with the story…it’s now a 2 hour filler to get you to the gear grind. It just doesn’t hold an attraction to me. likewise I tend to feel that my characters are “Done” in PoE when I can complete all the story content and solo a decent level of maps. I rarely get those gear setups that the dedicated players in PoE have in their builds. I do with a percentage of it, and I am satisfied when I can do the content I want. But in all cases, the game tends to stall for me once I get to level cap.

But again, the whole concept of a finished character is really dependent on the games design, and I see this game as designing the character around it’s level, with gear as an end game accomplishment, not necessarily a progression path. It’s something to do once you’ve finished your character, not the goal of the game itself.

although to be honest, this sounds a bit weird in a game that is essentially a loot grind. However, there’s a lot of ways to skin that cat. But my characters tend to be done when I hit that cap and can finish the game. Certainly I tend to grind to get gear that’s good enough to finish the game. but I rarely have a specific set of gear in mind that establishes that “this character is done”. Gear tends to drive ideas for new builds for me, rather then the concept of completion.

On the OP: No. One of the reasons I love GD is specifically because it does not follow the modern “never ending progression” system that so many others have leaped on to try to drag that carrot a little further down the road. I also do not want competitive environment like rifts. The second a competitive environment is built, character creativity and variety dies. Id rather play the base game 100x over with new and different builds then to go do down the road of never-ending progression and homogenization in another game.

Let’s say there is a Paragon system, where the limit are extent to +1 OA/move speed/ atk spd/ resistant…and to be fair, the limitation perk can be carry on by the new character.

Wont there be a rant-post, still, of people hacking their way to the limit. I meant, it’s possible even from a start up.
Let’s agree to be disagree with any powercreep-related system in any near future.

Imho, end game content won’t do the justice, even if its happening on next Grim Dawn games. Both D3 and PoE playerbase has the same rant-post over their end-game content too :rolleyes:

All I can think of atm, is for next GD to instill some Season environment in between their major patch.Where current player may benefit by any accumulated stacked Season-challenge and claim their prize. Be it cosmetic or anynthing. *idea borrowed from PoE.

Im sure by then, Crate has gotten their immaculate experience over town-building new IP already…and have few things to mishmash with next iteration of Grim Dawn.

I think a chest reward might work. Like you get a special chest after you gained enough experience after level 100. And your record can show how many reward chests you have gotten already. Just a extra little bonus for killing monsters after reaching level 100, and that record of chests you have earned kinda give you a sense of progression.