With the new mastery being all unique, exciting and forward-pushing, one may find themselves looking back at old masteries. Not that they’re bad, but lets say some skills are more repetitive than the others.
So the issue is - there exist 3 FS-esque skills (base: projectile, ssm1: aoe around proj, ssm2: fragments). I think among them FS is on the better side both in terms of performance and uniqueness (behaviour changes depending on melee/ranged, kinda cool that can be used with both). On the other hand DEE and PRM are not, they’re both just bad in terms of performance (a lesser issue I think, but these two are the real outliers) and just being boring once you understand that these 3 are the same skill and of them is simply better numerically.
Its also kinda irks me that DEE’s transmuter, while thematically cool, renders 2 nodes absolete. Same applies for CD PRM on Ludrigan.
I think one way to make the skills standout more besides sheer numeric buffs (which are boring) is to change projectile’s behaviour. Fork, return, orbit around, you name it. GrimLeague actually does that for both skills and you at least think of trying them out because its something relatively unique.
I know theres a lot on the plate with the upcoming DLC, but maybe theres a place to throw some of those modiferes on random gear and see how thats goes? Besides, this playtest doesnt have the theme so far so maybe old skills getting some spice will do it.
another thing to boost them could be to make them benefit from modifiers across the entire line full stop and not the current Vile Eruption/Focused Gaze/Proliferation shenanigans?
I get/or rather as i understand it is currently doable just has to be done manually/individually per modifier?, which could then be tedious etc. But if it’s just for PRM and DEE, and not had to be done for all skills, maybe it could be something to help too?
But agree, these two stand out consistently as the most boring reskins. Same mechanics, lower performance cap, and costing way too many points to just be an AoE skill. Definitely feels like a legacy vanilla thing when newer classes have all gotten fresh implementations to their skills.
I don’t quite see how fire strike is similar to prm. Fire strike is a default attack replacement. PRM is a more or less basic magic attack???
I don’t really have issues with PRM, other than the single target damage being quite low. There’s no other skill that replicates upon hit, is there? So it already has a ‘cool effect’? Maybe it gets a bit boring after 10 years?
This I get. It does take a lot of skill points to get going.
I fully agree on DEE though, it’s probably the least exciting skill in the game. Also feels like it eats energy without doing much damage while leveling (and I never got very far with it).
Maybe it should have pass-through chance or something?
4 node skills, shoot a projectile that splinters. Firestike has innate weapon damage which is probably why it fairs best and has the least issue with single target damage (and the whole melee option too). There are slight differences (passthrough vs small aoe explosion nodes), but overall the template is the same with a few tweaks. Add in PRM having some very frustrating gear pieces to get the skill close to capped and still having awful single target, and it’s full red headed stepchild status imo
I’m sorry, but it’s a very different skill. Fire strike is a default attack that can also trigger wps and has to be used with an actual weapon. It mainly does single target damage (with weapon damage) and has small explosions.
PRM is a magic attack that doesn’t trigger wps has no weapon damage and it’s main gimmick is the replication on impact. It also eats a ton more energy (as it’s a casting ability).
I’m not against tweaking it, but it’s very strange to me to compare it to fire strike.
Fire strike is more like savagery or righteous fervor imho.
you’re thinking that way because it’s an AA; thus “ignoring” it’s inherent properties unrelated to the AA portion (which makes it quite different from Savagery/RF actually)
people here are talking about template, or non AA related interaction/mechanics
Obviously DEE is the better example, it’s literally a 1:1 copy of firestrike template - despite not being an AA/scaling wps.
PRM likewise is then having similar template copies even if it’s not full 1:1 but like idono 8/9, it doesn’t go explosive strike but has native fragmentation instead of that secondary effect interaction/investment.
Proliferation is Brimstone 1:1. Distortion is a chance of increase dmg/aoe + passive dmg increase, Supercharged is just a dmg booster. It’s just a tweaked version of Static Strike’s chance of dmg and passive dmg+Explosive Strike “function” merged.
(with a different effect than explosive strike(because PRM already had native aoe) but still adding the bonus aoe element of explosive strike)
Whether or not the template additionally scales WPS/is set as AA/DAR is basically irrelevant, when the base templates are the same/similar/copied with a tweak
or is Ludrigan better because it allows for cheaper investment of the same overall utility? (1-1-max-0)
with DEE you’re maxing multiple nodes, for the same dot outcome, and minimal direct impact value/and desperately pointing blood burst despite not gaining from modifiers or transmuter. And vile eruption being borderline meaningless because no dot to carry dmg through the CD, while likewise doesn’t benefit from mods/transmuter so scales even less.
Feels like a larger investment, that then has to carry some extra dmg?, from being 3x as costly; yet Ludrigan was the ones favoured in League seasons, and is on the top 20 - kinda makes it sound like that triple investment isn’t worth the initial dmg/nuke potential?
or like, if you’re to invest 36 or so points into a “nuke”, or 14, which is preferred? If we are investing those 36pts, would we rather want DEE or Grenado/ShadowStrike/CD Forcewave etc etc ? - which has more/actual nuke feel/use?
idono, maybe i’m over-rationalizing it
(and CD DEE dmg just got reduced too from double stacking dmg off modifiers being fixed )
I mean, “dumping a truckload of points” is kinda the name of the game with those skills, can’t really change that. FOI too.
However, when the tuck is actually dumped, seeing some returns would be nice. I played Ludrigan on ex-TSS drood, with Invoker set on top of it, and the results… are still PRM. I kinda expected more from that CD modifier back in the day. Not that the build was lacking in any way, so whatever.
To be slightly more on topic, I feel PRM is distinguished enough from FS with its innate passthrough and the way splinters behave. It feels different, even if mechanically it’s not. DEE is stuck in that weird limbo between the 2 though. Fragments like on FS, passthrough (with items) like on PRM, and it’s a cast. I had my fun with spam DEE build, it’s absolutely not unique enough for me to try spam PRM afterwards.
I see what you’re saying with the similarities here, but I do not agree that changes are warranted in the manner described above, nor do I concur that these are “Fire Strike” skills.
Part of the strength of Grim Dawn is that similar skills behave differently because of the context that surrounds them; the masteries they are in, the items that support them, the damage types they provide access to, etc. Savagery and Righteous Fervor are literally the same skill templates. Yet because they provide inherent access to different WPS, and because the items that empower these skills take builds in different directions, the skills feel different to play.
PRM is in a relatively fine state because its cold/lightning damage synergizes inherently with TSS casts, and its Fire/Aether damage synergizes inherently with Callidor’s/Devastation casts. These are two ‘halves’ to Arcanist that PRM can lean into depending on how you want to shake out your itemization.
DEE is in a sorry state mostly because its item support has always been terrible and Occultist is, ultimately, a pet mastery with some standalone playerscaling skills that don’t interact with one another. I’ve gone so far as to recreate Occultist when the mod tools came out because I’ve always seen the mastery as being mistakenly implemented on a fundamental level, but that isn’t DEE’s fault - the skill is a victim of the mastery’s design. It is also a victim of having some of the worst item support in the game; the Dreeg set has never once been interesting in a decade of Grim Dawn, and is entirely anti-synergistic with DEE despite providing bonuses to it, whereas at least Iskandra and Ludrigan have had some time in the sun now and then.
If you want to make DEE more interesting, make it better by improving its surroundings.
Would I turn my nose up at forking/orbiting/funny projectile skills in general? No. But I don’t think such changes are likely this late into development, especially when descriptions of such behavior would incur additional translation/localization requirements. I, therefore, don’t like relying on mechanical changes as being the only suggestible solution to a skill’s problems. I wandered down that road with Cadence, and Zantai’s approach was to just make the numbers on the skill and its items bigger, and now Cadence is significantly more playable.
For what it’s worth, Grim Armory made its own version of the DEE set…
tho it could also just be said in essence the scope of the request then is more a timing issue/not really fitting this playtest, but at the same time could also just be tried as a dry run for FoA, “randomly slap new effect modifiers on items and give the (public) players a go at it”. If the results are out of line, ok, might need further tweaking down the FoA road, or rejected outright in the face of it.
Idono, i could honestly see it both ways. Unsure how much fine endgame balance tweaking is going to be done for FoA closed testing? and if this type is better in an open playtest. Or even if better in open if it’s then still better suited for after actual FoA arrival.
But because of FoA being on the horizon, if anything it means these type of not just “numbers go up” changes is probably the ripest it will ever be (even if it’s on modifiers and not baseline skill changes)
No idea if the request also originates from a perception of “numbers go up” as fix or request is futile at this point(/having been made frequent in the past), or largely from the perspective of fun.
But even from the non performance improvment perspective, moar/different effects just sounds fun to me in general, so even if the time isnt’ right for this playtest, in the name of entertainment i think it’s a solid request regardless, and well worth for Z et al to consider the skill/effect ideas.
Thanks for the explanation. I now understand where the request is coming from.
That said, I don’t feel that PRM needs different mechanics. It’s different enough for me to not feel the same, even if maybe it uses similar mechanics under the hood.
Again, not saying the performance is great, but I don’t think that’s what this is about.
)