Pet v1.2 Discussion

[MergosWetNurse]

Buhahahaha

[Paikis]

We’re all missing the most important thing though. Which movement run should we use?

[haaz]

I haven’t read the whole thread, but I just wanted to say a quick thank you for the dev for adding more pet conversion damage (in particular Stormbringer of Malmouth, Voidmancer Cord, and Cryptstalker). Also special shoutout to the changes to Will of Bysmiel and Blightshard Amulet.

I’m excited to play with the 1.2 changes soon ^^

[MergosWetNurse]

from the pets I played from maya & eard they seem to rly like displacement as movement rune.
amatoks breath also is always a solid choice since it freezes anything it touches unless mob has high freezing res.

[HmaKvla]

@tqFan

It’s Dark Souls starting from today

so that means it’s difficulty is basically now just unfair? xP

[Knife]

I have a funny feeling these changes were made as part of laying the groundwork in preparation for the transformative 10th mastery.

In other words, how Shapeshifting works.

Without knowing anything about it my gut intuition is that there may be complications within the programming/coding of the relationship between “player” stats and “pet” stats, when a player shapeshifts into a “pet”.

Imagine your pets stats if they also wore all your gear.

My wildman theory- without massively nerfing pets, the shapeshifting mechanic would be broken on release as it would take into account the pets stats as well as your gear stats.

And here is where i laugh at myself because theres no way im right about this.

…is there?

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

@Knife

And here is where i laugh at myself because theres no way im right about this.

…is there?

nop
/10char

[Daniel_Brewer]

So, I haven’t read through this entire thread. There is a lot to read. I really hate the term “lazy pet builds.” I like to think my pets fight along side my character. Conjurer is my go to, and I like using the holy trinity tank/heal/dps. Pet builds are the closest thing I’m going to get to a modern Dungeon Siege game lol. I love the changes to Mend Flesh as it actually works how it should now. I haven’t really tried much endgame content with my build so I can’t speak to nerfs for survivability. I hope my build would stand the test, but who knows. It’s tough to please everyone. Just wanted to add that not all players enjoy sitting back, and let the pets do everything. Some of us just like having pets tag along, and help us save Cairn. It makes the journey feel a little less lonely

[Maya]

@bryanw1995

But…superbosses are such a miniscule part of the entire game. If all you care about is to gdstash the gear then fight the superboss, just find out what the best build is for that and do it for an hour or 2 until you get bored, then the game’s dead.

This entire thread came out me saying I no longer recommend Pets for Superbosses.

@bryanw1995

I guess I just don’t understand why you think that pets have to be top tier as a starter build, top tier as a speed farmer, top tier in farming very difficult content, and then finally also top tier in the tiny handful of superboss encounters that are actually difficult on top of everything else.

Because non pets can do all that.

@bryanw1995

Oh, sorry, and you’ve decided this without more than a very small amount of playtesting

I don’t think you get to say that without having any idea of how much time I have spent in this game, both in total and in the latest playtest.

---

@Zantai

Although in all but one of those videos, they’re unironically repositioning themselves to not die to attacks, so what is even the argument there?

That I made my claim about Pets being against superbosses because I unironically find myself having to do much more vs Superbosses on a Pet build compared to all those non pet builds.

Compare and contrast the safety and effort put into the playstyle here -

Phys Blitz Warlord vs Callagadra [1.2 test] - 1:21

VS

Grim Dawn PT1.2 (final) Maya's Lost Souls vs Cally (2:32)

@Zantai

Who ever said they should be like this?

And if they stop being like that, I won’t complain about pets being weaker at that point (assuming pets don’t get further nerfed).

But all the statements I have made thus far have been based on how things are at present, rather than how they might be in the future.

And I understand the whole “not all builds are supposed to be equally good against superbosses” and “they are not supposed to be a fair fight”, etc.
But then, am I so wrong to say that if you care about those bosses, I will not recommend and that you are better off not leveling and farming for a particular build or playstyle that comparatively has a much harder time in those fights?

[Zantai]

I mean…he’s pressing 5 buttons on cooldown, repositioning regularly, would probably get inferior results in the Shattered Realm and Crucible, which are…you know…the actual relevant content in the discussion? Meanwhile do we want to talk about how Skeletons are doing in the Crucible right now?

Eard’s recording has a similar amount of buttons, though most have longer cooldowns, only really needs to reposition the few times he draws aggro, and the kill time is not egregiously slower. I mean, we’re talking 1:40 vs 2:30, where the 1:40 build is a single-target monster.

[Maya]

@Zantai

repositioning regularly

standing in tornadoes like they don’t even tickle while only evading sunder, while eard has to constantly move about.

@Zantai

which are…you know…the actual relevant content in the discussion?

I never said anything about pets being weak in crucible or SR in 1.2, so that part does not involve me or anything I have said.

@Zantai

Meanwhile do we want to talk about how Skeletons are doing in the Crucible right now?

I do, I have repeatedly said pet damage is perfectly nerf worthy atm.
If I could trade their damage for more survivability, you know as well as I do that I would do it in a heartbeat.

@Zantai

Eard’s recording has a similar amount of buttons, though most have longer cooldowns, only really needs to reposition the few times he draws aggro, and the kill time is not egregiously slower. I mean, we’re talking 1:40 vs 2:30, where the 1:40 build is a single-target monster.

Pet builds rely on pets keeping aggro to stay alive, exactly.
And that is why I want the pets designed to be tanks, with their fancy taunt skills to actually be tanky instead of dying every couple of seconds.

I am ok if Skeletons are supposed to be frail. They have been like that for the majority of the game.

But why can’t Briarthorn, Hellhound or Blightfiend be tanky?
If the warlord up above can tank everything but sunder, why can’t the pets who are supposed to do that in pet builds, tank all those attacks?
And regarding Sunder, if it is designed to be Evaded, why is it that Pets have no Evade skill?

And why is the Familiar that has been given a 16 point Healing skill, so fragile that it can easily get 1 shot by these bosses, thereby leaving you with just wasted points until the cooldown refreshes, only to get 1 shot again?

I can stack DA, armor and phys res sky high on player builds to facetank even Sunder atm, if I don’t mind 10 min superboss fights. But there isn’t an option to do it for Pets even if I wanted to, because the options for it get repeatedly taken away.

Pets don’t even have a single defensive potion atm, so you can’t even rely on that.

[Zantai]

@Maya

Pet builds rely on pets keeping aggro to stay alive, exactly.
And that is why I want the pets designed to be tanks, with their fancy taunt skills to actually be tanky instead of dying every couple of seconds.

No? Pets should require substantial resummoning against a superboss.

Are you resummoning Briarthorns/Hellhounds/etc on cooldown in the Crucible and Shattered Realm?

@Maya

And why is the Familiar that has been given a 16 point Healing skill, so fragile that it can easily get 1 shot by these bosses

Familiar got a 30% health boost in v1.2.

@Maya

I can stack DA, armor and phys res sky high on player builds to facetank even Sunder atm

When the player dies, their DPS goes to 0. When a pet dies, you keep going. That is the difference.

Builds facetanking Sunder aren’t intended anyway. Though can probably count how many can do that and survive and still kill a superboss reasonably fast on one hand.

[Maya]

@Zantai

No? Pets should require substantial resummoning against a superboss.

and that is why I say Pets suck vs Superbosses compared to non pet builds that do not have to worry about both the player and pets.

@Zantai

Are you resummoning Briarthorns/Hellhounds/etc on cooldown in the Crucible and Shattered Realm?

Not unless playing a Budget build.

@Zantai

Familiar got a 30% health boost in v1.2.

That factors very little compared to resistances.

@Zantai

When the player dies, their DPS goes to 0. When a pet dies, you keep going. That is the difference.

But if a player can casually kill the hardest bosses ingame without worrying about death, does that difference apply to those builds?

@Zantai

Builds facetanking Sunder aren’t intended anyway. Though can probably count how many can do that and survive and still kill a superboss reasonably fast on one hand.

And I am sure that not even a single pet build makes that list.

Something to note is the fundamental difference in our standards for what makes a “good” build.

Even if there is only one build that fits my criteria of “can do everything casually”, I would be asking myself “why bother with the rest?”

So, everyone looking at my complaints (no matter the side they have chosen), should take that into account.

[Zantai]

@Maya

and that is why I say Pets suck vs Superbosses compared to non pet builds that do not have to worry about both the player and pets.

But, uh…your pets are your build. Is your build supposed to be stand there until loot pops out?

@Maya

Not unless playing a Budget build.

So success yet again?

@Maya

But if a player can casually kill the hardest bosses ingame without worrying about death, does that difference apply to those builds?

I’ve seen all of one clip so far where someone actually facetanked a v1.2 superboss without concern. Where are all these builds where players don’t have to worry about death?

[Maya]

@Zantai

But, uh…your pets are your build. Is your build supposed to be stand there until loot pops out?

That is how I see my non pet builds performing.

@Zantai

I’ve seen all of one clip so far where someone actually facetanked a v1.2 superboss without concern. Where are all these builds where players don’t have to worry about death?

I am including the builds that press evade to avoid sunder, rather than facetanking sunder as well.

[Zantai]

@Maya

I am including the builds that press evade to avoid sunder, rather than facetanking sunder as well.

Then your standards are simply baffling to me. Those builds are using defensive skills and repositioning to stay alive. What is not facetanking then? Running constantly in fear for a 10 minute kill?

Again, if a pet player is repositioning, their pets keep doing damage. If a non-pet player is repositioning, they’re doing virtually 0 damage.

[Maya]

@Zantai

Then your standards are simply baffling to me. Those builds are using defensive skills and repositioning to stay alive. What is not facetanking then? Running constantly in fear for a 10 minute kill?

How many pet builds can stand inside Cally’s tornadoes or Ravager’s Blood pools?

I mean, if you still consider both how pet builds perform atm and how most of those example non pet builds perform atm to be fine, I am ok with that.

I will however go “pets suck” the same way I compare Wind Devils to Guardians or Widow to Murmur and go “yeah, wind devil and widow both suck”.

I can accept things won’t change without being happy about it.

@Zantai

Again, if a pet player is repositioning, their pets keep doing damage. If a non-pet player is repositioning, they’re doing virtually 0 damage.

and also why I keep looking at pet damage to be the thing that needs nerfing, but we have different opinions on how to balance them and that is ok.

[Zantai]

@Maya

How many pet builds can stand inside Cally’s tornadoes or Ravager’s Blood pools?

The pets…or the player?

@Maya

I will however go “pets suck” the same way I compare Wind Devils to Guardians or Widow to Murmur and go “yeah, wind devil and widow both suck”.

Haha, well that is where the problem began I suppose. These suck to you in the sense that you do not like them, but that does not mean they are ineffective or unviable. Someone else might see “suck” and go, well that must mean they are unplayable garbage.

@Maya

and also why I keep looking at pet damage to be the thing that needs nerfing, but we have different opinions on how to balance them and that is ok.

I am certainly of the philosophy that the average person is going to look at clear speed and want something competitive for endgame looting. Likewise, they will probably want to kill a superboss comparably fast to a non-pet build, and that kill should take expert knowledge of the game and effort both in assembling the build and executing the kill.

I do not see how the v1.2 changes made “lazy” pets builds unplayable for endgame content. If they became unviable for superbosses, that seems fair.

[Maya]

@Zantai

The pets…or the player?

Both, atm.

If your tanky pets die and the boss switches aggro to you, you are forced to reposition against more than just sunder, because pets are also the “defensive skills” in a pet build.

@Zantai

Someone else might see “suck” and go, well that must mean they are unplayable garbage.

Anyone who takes the word of someone else blindly without never having tried it out for themselves have only themselves to blame if they end up regretting missing out on it later.

So, that is certainly a double edged sword. A person might spend the time and effort on the particular something only to come to the same conclusion and feel like they wasted time, or they might be pleasantly surprised.

Only way to be sure is to experience it for themselves.

@Zantai

I am certainly of the philosophy that the average person is going to look at clear speed and want something competitive for endgame looting. Likewise, they will probably want to kill a superboss comparably fast to a non-pet build, and that kill should take expert knowledge of the game and effort both in assembling the build and executing the kill.

I do not see how the v1.2 changes made “lazy” pets builds unplayable for endgame content. If they became unviable for superbosses, that seems fair.

I can safely say that anyone who share the same thoughts will only find Pet builds to be stronger than ever, even overpowered in 1.2

[Zantai]

@Maya

Anyone who takes the word of someone else blindly without never having tried it out for themselves have only themselves to blame if they end up regretting missing out on it later.

So, that is certainly a double edged sword. A person might spend the time and effort on the particular something only to come to the same conclusion and fee like they wasted time, or they might be pleasantly surprised.

Only way to be sure is to experience it for themselves.