dead build archetype is not subjective
performance metrics might shift or there is new requirements or tolerances, but it does not detract from the archetype still existing and being playable and viable and capable of the overall feat, even if it’s not in the same time, comfort/safety or ease
again, this is not an argument whether the nerf is right/warranted or good/bad; just that pet builds as a type did not die
What has this thread devolved to? I’ll just respond to this one post because everything else is just noise.
What you always ignore is that this “drastic power decrease” is only true for killing one Celestial (maybe 2 if you include Ravager’s more devastating attacks), and Zantai already said he’d look into Calla’s AoE capabilities which would help pet builds and non-pet builds alike. If people are flocking away from their builds because ONE ENCOUNTER requires more effort than facetanking the whole fight while having appreciable DPS (because Calla fights more than 5 minutes are trash in your eyes), then that says more about the players than the state of pet builds.
I even agree that there aren’t any “comfortable” Calla fights, but to declare the entire archetype dead when we can simply ask for Calla to be adjusted a bit to make survivability easier is hyberbolic to the extreme.
it literally is or we wouldn’t be having this argument.
no, that’s the point
that crying “dead build” is objectively wrong, and poor taste/bad manners “doesn’t help anything” or bring any solid/good to the table about getting pets buffed again
it just causes outcry and more unfounded moaning with knee jerk reactions with nothing helpful to either party, OPs reaction and “initial” replies demonstrates and highlights this to the tee
I would hope “the authority” on pets would be more objective on the state of pets in general.
This thread is getting way out of hand and I’m honestly disappointed that there is still any debate, much less this heated, after where I left it. Comparing celestial kills is literal apples to oranges and does not remotely paint a full picture (which is also why they are not a metric). Some non-pet builds are literally created to counter celestials.
Not only are pets not dead in v1.2 as it is in playtest, they absolutely will not be with the release build changes.
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No, I am not basing it on that.
The game as a whole shifted to more damage heavy, both for and against the player.
There were no tools provided to pet builds to counter that and the ones we had (making pets tanky enough) were taken away.
If pets had defensive potions or if pet attack command worked like evade, then that would be a different case.
that is your subjective opinion though?
Because people sometimes vent 
I am merely stating my experience based on both pet and non pet builds I have played on the patch that is available to testers.
Will things change in 1.2 release? maybe, hopefully.
it’s not tho
venting is fine
dont’ decry a build archetype dead, repeat it, and emphatically assert it, it does nothing good, less so when it’s objectively not real
and that’s the umbrage taken with OPs remarks
Considering what has been posted here and stated by Maya and others, I imagine that the Hybrid playstyle for Pet builds is going to be hit very hard by the changes. The builds I made were able to kill Super Bosses before but it was always a very difficult task with battles lasting over ten minutes with many close calls. Unfortunately, I can’t test any of my Hybrid builds because they were stored in local saves in my recently broken notebook. I have lost all saves and have to start over, pretty much. But I know very well that killing Super Bosses in those builds was really tough. Are the builds dead? Can’t say. Are they going to suffer a lot because of the changes? Probably. I’m gonna wait for the patch to drop and see if I can create something for the purposes of testing.
do quote where it says “gnuffi’s definition of what is dead or is not dead is the only true one” 
whether it is real or not is not something objective.
it is
Come on, really? Whataboutism?
Some People arguing in a Pet 1.2.0. topic it should trivialize superbosses by being able to pull them off easy and lazy. I personally disagree with that and say that (for fairness sake) many / most builds have to put some effort into it, and you have nothing better to point out the (fictional % to bring my point accross) other 1% of other type of builds which also might be overtuned? That’s totally besides the point and makes you sound a bit dishonest.
So i dunno what to tell you. But if these builds you point out gets a “Nerf” and players would open up a topic debate about it, i would’ve the same stance as here and also wouldn’t drag out every other possible build which still might overtuned. But yeah, i’m pretty much done here and said everything i meant to, plus Big Z here and pointed out the debate-climate here and i don’t want it to go more heated. So have fun debating.
No, you say it is.
If we are going to asset our claims as irrefutable truths, then I suppose you are wrong according to me.
What if I don’t consider them to be overtuned?
Do note that I would not be having this discussion if top pet builds and non pet builds both struggle against superbosses.
But at the moment, that is not the case.
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no, again, that’s the part of it not being subjective
the fact Z even has to remind people of it, and eard stated it as well, should clearly highlight how much not subjective this is
trying to impose a subjective sentiment towards something so categorically doesn’t not work as it’s objectively not so
and what makes someone’s opinion on this matter more valid than other people’s?
Zantai is one of the devs, sure. But, does that mean players are always in the wrong if they disagree with his opinions on something concerning GD?
I never said or even thought anything of the sort. I actually expressly said the exact opposite in my response to Zantai:
I didn’t even know about this whole “pets are dead” until Zantai basically tried to assassinate Maya’s character by implying she instilled that idea in me even though to this very moment I have never even come across such a message from her.
I get it, it seems he doesn’t like her on a personal level from the little I gathered because she had some run ins with the staff. But despite anything, her input in invaluable when it comes to pet builds and I appreciate all the work she has put forth in this community.
If I was a dev, I’d be rewarding her humongous unpaid contributions in any way I could and would put her in charge of a “pet council” along with other members since in my opinion, they would do a great job weighting in on decisions like these.
Anyway, I just wanted to get this off my chest because it’s been rubbing me off a bit how she gets treated here sometimes.
The conclusion I arrived at, which is that pets are in a worse situation than before, despite all the last minute nerf reversions made by the devs, I made it on my own, by reading threads such as Maya’s and the “final pet changes” thread.
To make my opinion extremely clear on this:
- Pet builds should be an “easy” mode, as to be accessible for newbies and those less skilled.
- They should be very casual in its approach, requiring no direct piloting. All the heavy thinking should be put on synergizing devotion, skills, items, etc.
- Unguided casual pet builds should be tougher than unguided casual non-pet builds, but not to the point of clearing superbosses, or other very end game content.
- Professional pet builds should be tougher than professional non-pet builds, and be able to clear any end game content quite easier without taking risks.
- The shift from survivability to DPS and micro management won’t literally kill pet builds but as others pointed out, will surely make them weaker and a lot more tedious to play; whilst making them less casual and easy-going.
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Where have you felt the game as a whole being more damage heavy?
In the Crucible? I’ve been getting 1-2 minute better times in 1.2 than other patches because of all the buffs we’ve gotten (and the pets are in no danger of dying)
In 75-76 SR? Heck, I’ll up the ante and say 85-86 SR? Things are a bit sweaty in SR 85, but again, the pets are usually not in danger as long as you make good use of your heals.
So that just leaves superbosses, which we can have our say on what constitutes a good superboss metric, but the team literally redesigned the entire aspect of supers so it’d be too difficult for a player to sit there and treat the super like it’s a glorified training dummy.
Again, the only big change that caused this mess in the first place was that pet physical resistance was removed from some items, making it overall less “paint-by-numbers” where you get all your DPS buffs from one set of gear (usually a set) and the tankiness to easily handle superbosses in this other set of gear (usually the same set, but some other pieces as well).
I’d love more ways to be able to counteract the increased damage. More consistent heals? A more creative devotion set-up that actually forces us to choose between stacking pet physical resistance and going for high-DPS options like Mogdrogen’s? There are numerous ways we can approach the problem.
Crucible, SR, Campaign and Supers.
It is easier to die than before and it is easier for pets to die as well.
But that is not a general complaint because it is only against Superbosses that this becomes apparent or frustrating.
If say the Briarthorn dies more while leveling? sure, you notice that, but it matters little.
If you are relying on it to tank for you and keep you safe against Mogdrogen and he instead 1 shots it and heads straight for you? you are in trouble.
Regarding Supers and Pets -
The frustration comes from the playstyle, which used to be a strength now acting as a weakness.
Pets being the bread and butter means that the player just stands away from action and mostly casts debuffs and heals.
How do you make that into a more active playstyle?
By requiring micro managing of pets? By forcing the player to Kite while waiting for cooldown?
Both make for a frustrating rather than exciting experience.
It is like forcing melee builds to kite, the nature of the playstyle won’t make it a likeable experience. Ofcourse, Player builds have Evade + movement augments and skills to help with that.
With Pets, you have… Pet attack command…
You also cannot rely on pharma to keep pets alive because there are none for that. You can use them to keep the player alive, but if your pets are dead you are not doing any damage nor anything else other than running around while buffed with all those potions. That still translates to an unfun experience.
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I would love to see pet defensive enchants for armor in place of player ones. It was difficult to find more aether and elemental resistances since a lot of gear pieces were so mandatory. Along with a very set devo path…yeah hard.
Having said that, it is also sad to have to be in the thick of things to force tree procs and res shred auras. Almost wish res shred auras could be applied on pets so I don’t have to be anywhere near all the fighting.
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