Jeez, calm down a bit there. It’s great you’re a fan of her builds, but you’re making a whole lot of assumptions.
Considering she received a permanent ban from this community for past poor decisions, which I later removed in a wave of second-chance ban forgiveness that we were in no way obligated to do, can we keep personal feelings out of this please?
You, like everyone else, have an opinion on how pets should work, and that’s fine. But I’ve actually yet to see any evidence that shows pet builds no longer allow for lazy slow and steady endgame play you believe they should permit.
I do see a whole lot of drama around lazy play no longer being possible for celestial bosses. Which…great? Sounds like success.
Again, if there is some actual proof of pet endgame struggling in campaign/crucible/shattered realm, by all means, I am happy to hear it out.
But why tho? To make non pet players hate the game, having to play better and having to deal with bigger risks? There needs to always be a trade off imo.
I don’t mind lazy builds being able to clear all content, if they are significantly slower at doing so, but you are suggesting unoptimized pets to be better than non pets and minmaxed pets to be better than non pets… huh? There would be 0 tradeoff, if that was the case…
This just feels like “pet player entitlement” to me.
Well, I can only go by what I see here and from the eyes of a casual outsider what I see is an extremely dedicated player who took years of her unpaid time to create multiple top-notch pet builds that get religiously updated, all backed-up with data and metrics, neatly organized into different threads and even a PDF to go along with all of that; all in while her valid concerns get dismissed left and right without any good reason by snickering and passive-aggressive arguments.
Without knowing the situation and the full context, I’ll refrain from forming an opinion on this. I’m not implying what I’m about to say is what happened, but I could absolutely see her getting unfairly banned but still apologizing since she loves the game and wants to continue being part of the community. We the non-staff are the weakest link here, and we are at the mercy of your whims. We can get banned for whatever, you can’t.
There’s your evidence. Unless you don’t consider superbosses as endgame content.
You also gloss over the fact that whatever availability the pets still have, are due to last minute changes you had to be, well, coerced into reversing; and you keep talking to me as if to gaslight me that “nahh bro, it’s all in your mind!”.
By the way, you still have to provide any reasoning for as to why you chose to nerf defense instead of attack. You did say “something had to go” but never elaborated on that.
I didn’t say “better”(nor “faster” for that matter). I said “easier” and by easier I mean pets should be tougher to die and provide a strong safety net to the player.
I don’t mind if your minmaxed non-pet build kills things faster and more efficiently than a pet build, I’d say that’s warranted since as you pointed out, you’re taking higher risks. Pet builds - at least the ones focused on defense - should provide little to no risk to the player.
EDIT: I did say “stronger” and I apologize for the confusion. I didn’t find a better word but I should have explained there that I meant stronger in the sense of survivability.
You ready to hear my super secret plan on this? Just row back all the survivability nerfs.
i am by no mean a “pet master” here, but since i tried to play most pet builds for the last 6 months, i want to give some feedback about my own pet builds (i only play with set, since its the easiest for newbie pet-player like me) about v1.2 playtest
Vitality Pet Conjurer: Conjurer, Level 100 (GD 1.1.9.8) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
This build i tried base on someone’s vitality Conjurer on the feedback playtest (please tell me who cuz i forgot LOL). The change to Scavenger glove is awesome (100% physic and 50% acid to vit), so that i can skip Marrow Band for a MI Sgnet ring and get hard-cap Embold Presence. The nerf took away almost 10% physical res (both Ring and Behemoth devo) and 30% HP for pets (nerf to Bysmiel), not mention a lot of damage nerf to the 10 pets from items (3 from glove + 3 from scepter + 4 from Relic). But this kind of build is still f*cking strong after all that. Dont tell me i go for damage becuse i took Mogdrogen route devo. This char got 22k HP, 3k6 DA, 1k1 HP regen all the time and a freaking 86% physic res. All that is a “wet-dream stats” for a pet char. So in the end- vitality pet is by no mean “dead”. They are slower, but strong still. Build required a few green MI, but only 1 “of the Wild” is needed to hard-cap Briar, and nothing else really matter. And it can kill Superbosses- just not as fast as it was
Chaos pet Cabalist: Cabalist, Level 100 (GD 1.1.9.8) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
The buff to lost soul and Bysmiel relic are so good, those made this build both tanky and - surprisingly- deal a lot of damage for a combo class that has 0 RR from masteries. I love this build a lot, a very fun, active play-style with 12 Skelies + 3 Reaper + 2 Hound, that benefit from monster + flat chaos/+ % chaos dam from everywhere. Skelies are fragile as hell (with those physic res nerf devo), but Reaper and Hounds (with Taunt) are too tanky to make up for that. And for the player, we have 20k HP (+ 6k Turtle), 40% physic res (70% half time), 3k6 DA. And Ill omen bind to Cleansing Water devo is f*cking great both offensive and defensive wise
Acid pet Ritualist: Ritualist, Level 100 (GD 1.1.9.8) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
the only thing i dont like about this build is a piano build. Way too many button to press. The buff 20% HP pet in 1.2 is great (since i cant find any with Ghol), make BF and Briar a lot tankier. It has a lot of damage (coming from huge % crit dam mod), and player itself hardly die with 3k DA, 30k HP and 45% physic res. The only boss that i cant kill with this build is Calla. But thats good enough for me
Bysmiel Trinket set:
Honestly i dont like Familiar. I cant make this set work. Way too fragile, even in SR 80 it died a lot- not mention Superbosses. i doubt those 30% base HP buff is enough for this set to shine compare to other 3 sets i mentioned.
TL;DR: Pet change in V1.2 are both come with lot of buffs and nerfs. More + skill points across all the sets, more items to play (chance on atk rather than chance on death proc), and a lot of buff to Devo/ Relic (other than Primal Ins- that relic is way too OP in the begining). Nerf to health and physical res can be manage somehow/ some playstyle if you adapt to it. I dont know about what kind of “bar line” those “pet master players” want (if they want to sleep when pet easily kill Superbosses, then yeah, this 1.2 version is too harsh). Other than that, for me, this version is a good change and a new challenge for newbie like me to enjoy
Uh…how is that not forming an opinion? You’ve just made up a scenario on the spot that defends someone you clearly admire. Do you really want the context of that ban? Or maybe we should leave history to rest and move on? Please spare me the tyrant moderators versus the poor defenseless players argument.
I mean, it’s a Sunday night and it’s a topic that’s been covered over months of playtest and literally answered in the thread you linked (again…), but pet clear times had fallen behind non-pet clear times in endgame content, so they needed a damage/aoe bump. That in turn needed to be counteracted by addressing the excessive durability pet builds had enjoyed for years (letting them easily clear SR shards that most non-pet builds would never be able to handle). Can’t have it both ways.
I stand by the changes that were made, and evidence so far points to them being fine (even if you disagree). But I’m also not above doling out the pain of reality more slowly, so here we go…let pet builds enjoy broken celestial kills for a little longer? I’ve yet to be shown any evidence that there are problems with endgame pet builds (except perhaps the Ghol set, which was already covered), but that does not seem to be what you’re here for. You’re far too content to be defending Maya (from what exactly? Unclear? I don’t get the impression she feels attacked by me here and we certainly seem to be having no trouble conversing?), and all too eager to pin me as some kind of villain that’s after the poor pet builds.
Superbosses were intended to be cleared by a tiny fraction of builds as a feat of strength, proof of mastery of the game. The fact that so many builds started beating them in a few minutes (many pet builds included) is just another example of how much power creep has occurred over the years. To some degree that is fine, but using superboss kills as a defense that something was overnerfed is simply not going to work when there’s literally still pet builds killing them.
Using some fringe non-pet builds to argue that pets should be doing that as well is painfully oblivious of how the game is tuned. Those same builds are not going to get equivalent results in the Crucible or the Shattered Realm, which is what “endgame” actually is, where clear times matter for efficient gear farming.
I’m not sure in what way I am gaslighting you considering there’s results from the playtest Without the additional changes and so far little to no evidence of there being a problem.
I will say this one final time: present evidence of pets struggling in endgame content. You have a whole lot to say and no personal experience to back it up.
Because the other possibility - of her being fairly banned - is still possible and I explicitly remarked: “I’m not implying what I’m about to say is what happened”?
I didn’t ask for anything.
I don’t see why pet clear times have to be prioritized over their durability. I think it’s quite obvious to expect that a pet build will clear things more slowly and I, personally, don’t see anything wrong with that.
Clearly, we have different standards of evidence here. I took the community’s voices and experience as evidence, of which the majority clearly disagrees with the changes you so much stand by, whilst your evidence is, well, who knows, you’re the dev, it’s not like you need any anyway.
I thought a dev would be above making baseless incel-like implications but here we are.
I admire her work, not her. I defend her work, not her. I don’t know, or care, for who she is personally.
No need for me to do that. Your hubris does all the work for me.
Irrelevant. The point has never been whether or not they can kill them, they obviously can, this game isn’t that hard from what I gathered. And no, just because they can, it doesn’t mean it’s “fine”. Well, maybe it is to you but it’s clearly not for a whole lot of other people. They care more than just “can it kill it or not”. As pointed out multiple times by others, how the build gets to that kill is more important. The play style is important. Those changes make that process a chore.
Because you kept telling me that there’s never been any issues and everything is fine, even though in that thread you clearly backpedaled.
I can’t present evidence of something I never even brought up in the first place. I can, however, present evidence of many here disagreeing with what you say is “fine”.
One of the few things we can finally agree. I’m a conduit for the community and I have zero issues in admitting I don’t know something and delegating my knowledge to others more capable than me.
I remember that pet builds go to SR 10x/ kill every superbosses since the begining of FG. A lot of changes happen, mostly buffs across the board, to pet builds, include:
Pet devo: Behemoth got % physic res very recently, Typhos used to be a aether/vitality Devo with some small pet bonus, but now its a must-have for pet builds due to high +crit dam and huge +physic res. Ishtak/ Dying God/ Korvaak got a lot of buffs on the latest few patches. And healing/ health regen (which is pet chars only way of healing) become more and more important and effective. I remember when every-freaking-pet builds had the same devotion route (Ishtak + ToL), but now we got a lot more choices.
Pet items: in the past, pet builds mostly use at least 1 full set to play. Cuz the +summon limit are way too good compare to other non- set builds. But a lot of new items, include Purple/ and even Blue pet set/ and a whole world of green MI- all those change made pet builds become a lot more diversity and more way to play. V1.2 is not exception. You get a whole lot more skill points buff, some items change from proc on death to on attack… to play with.
My conclusion: pets were fine in the past without all those buffs. So it will still be fine now with small nerf to physic res/ health. You just need to adapt to it and make some change. If you dont happy with this change, maybe you should take a little break/ try another playstyle/ or wait till a few more patches when things change again- when you have new tools to play with your pets
Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t those devo get added either because of the reversed changes or to make up for other nerfs?
Also, with their survivability nerfed wouldn’t healing become inherently weaker? I’m basing this assumption from this convo:
My break has lasted for 3 years. I was looking forward to the new expansion because I was thinking how much stronger and more resourceful they’d become and how much fun I’d have with potential new tools, skills, etc. Imagine my surprise…
You’re wrong, they were added multiple pt iterations earlier as general pets buffs based on feedback on their overall performance potential, because having an entire playstyle be subpar/limited to slow brain dead clears only is an awful way to approach game balance. But good job flailing like a spaz in this thread anyway when you don’t have a clue how pt went. I’m embarrassed you referenced my thread on the last balance changes to post the drivel in this thread, but I should have known better with how the average pet player in this community posts.
No one will pay attention to your tantrums unless you show which builds in your opinion are the ones that need to be improved, from your own perspective. Unless you are a secondary account of those who only come to vent their frustrations in the game, which we already know who they are.
Those original nerfs were never reverted (HPS). Only pointing out a fact.
Topic: I am for any changes that make the game better. Crate’s rationale for pet changes does have merit…what’s left to determine whether or not how far the pendulum has swung and which direction.
I have refrained posting a solid opinion on this because I am pretty sure that if I posted my experience (limited) with pets it would just be placed in the “meme build” and not be taken seriously. I also only tested one version of what I wanted to build and that’s hardly enough testing (even if 80% of gear slots have must haves and the devo path seems unchangeable). That HC character died at 99 so I didn’t even make it to endgame even if I was wearing most of the gear. It was that death that prompted my 2 above suggestions that I feel should be repeated.
Res shred auras need something to keep the player out of harms way. This is especially important for single pet masteries in which the non pet mastery applies its shred via an aura such as nightblades.
It only makes sense to have armor enchants have versions that apply to pets.
With limited testing, it feels that the hp changes are not the main influencing factor…more the loss of physical res and having to do something that non pet character don’t have to do…to build survivability for 2 groups (self and pets) while being locked into very specific devo paths to maintain some semblance of dps and survivability.
I am going to remake the character and test very unorthodox gear choices to try and over come some issues but no matter what I do 1 & 2 will still be there. At least for this specific build.
Again, I am sure Crate will make the right choices as this is far larger then the HPS changes were.
As the self-appointed community representative of the Holy Mortar Order, there are literally ones of us who are the real victims when it comes to endgame and superboss content. No, we’re not going to use “The Big One” like those other doctrinal heretics who probably even take a gratuitous second mastery. Points in Mortar Trap alone should be enough!
When will our clear time needs be met? How many more tubes must be tipped?
Anyway, I’ve gone to testing various pet builds against Callagdra (cause apparently I’m a tryhard now), and here’s what I’ve gathered from playing various classes against it:
Lightning Conjurer (Raven + Primal Spirit) - The Raven is tissue paper and Callagdra easily destroys it, which makes it ironic that the areas where the Raven survives is where you don’t need the Raven’s heal, and where you do need the Raven’s heal the pet isn’t durable enough to activate it. I never had enough skill points to put in the Raven’s heal, so it’s roughly a moot point anyhow.
Callagdra kill time: 4:30
Skeleton Cabalist - If you’re not playing Lost Souls set, the purpose of Skeletons is to respawn them faster than Calla can kill them. It’s best to heavily invest in Reap Spirit so that you have some form of damage while you’re constantly resummoning skeletons, but it’s definitely piano combining your utility skills and constant Skeleton resummoning
Callagdra kill time: over 8 minutes
Hellhound + Briarthorn Conjurer - This build is set so that pets have 50% overcap in Pierce resistance. You know how hard it is just to get 80% Pierce resistance for pets, much less 50% overcap? Pretty hard. Once you get that overcap, your pets survive much better to the point where you’re only occasionally resummoning your pets. This is similar to player builds who can easily get 50-100% Pierce overcap just due to how gearing goes.
So TL:DR version: Raven is very squishy against supers, Primal Spirit is actually quite good when you invest in it, Pierce overcaps are very hard to get but very much worth it against Calla specifically.
. The situation is like sudden Health regen nerfs, let devs experiment a bit.