Please remove the mobs that turn off your auras

[powbam]

And yes, being told it’s bad design is part of feedback that should be considered and not dismissed because one didn’t appreciate the delivery.

Here’s the thing… it’s not really feedback. It’s one person saying “shit design”. There happens to also be a group of people who LIKE arcane mobs. One thing you need to remember about game devs: they can never win no matter which decision (no matter how popular the decision) they make there is ALWAYS going to be someone to bitch about it. I’ve watched it happen on this forum for years now.

There could be an entire thread full of people praising (insert design choice A here) and there will always, without fail, be that one ass-tastic person who is going to come in and take a giant dump right in the middle of everyone.

Sorry but the OP’s post is a low-level post - a post he designed like shit (how’s that for feedback?). He deserves to be dismissed and he deserves to be notified of it.

Or people need to start paying more attention to slow as molasses projectile from an enemy that is so bright that it might as well have a big sign “I am arcane” above its head.

You are trying tell people how they should pay attention … Why? What do YOU find so fun about thee mobs to warrant their existence in GD?

This IS why the people who “favor” their existence find so “fun” about it. The fact that something is cause to make them have to pay attention versus snoozing their way thru blindly.

[Zantai]

I will agree with the bad design choice here. And yes, being told it’s bad design is part of feedback that should be considered and not dismissed because one didn’t appreciate the delivery.

Two issues with your argument:

1. We don’t have to pay attention to assholes. Considering someone’s feedback on our forum is a privilege, not part of the purchase of the game.
2. Implying that because it is feedback, it must be valued and taken into consideration.
   Not all feedback is created equal and on this matter in particular not only do we fundamentally disagree, many players are on the opposite end of your opinion.

[Contragor]

This IS why the people who “favor” their existence find so “fun” about it. The fact that something is cause to make them have to pay attention versus snoozing their way thru blindly.

When the devs consider these late game changes, they should also consider how they affect ALL game mods and scenarios. These mobs are totally harmless in softcore SR for example. Is there anything to lose? Not really. You can still play it half asleep as long as you have plenty of DPS. So what if you miss one of these orbs and get stripped of your auras just to get instagibbed by a nem. And if it’s not making much difference, why bother? What’s the point? How does this change the softcore gaming experience when there’s no penalty to death? You don’t even lose your shard progress. So, most players can simply ignore these mobs and just keep rolling, and if they die a couple extra times per run, who cares! As long as they complete it and get their loot.

In HC, on the other hand, the situation is quite a bit more stressful, obviously. But I doubt that devs were thinking “Let’s make the minority of our players suffer more”. They were trying to spice this game up IN GENERAL. That is, to make it more exciting for the VAST MAJORITY. But instead, every hardcore player I’ve teamed up with in the last several months, say the exact same thing, - “why did they do this. it’s annoying and not fun”. Because farming high SR in HC is NEVER boring. There’s plenty of adrenaline with all the random damage spikes we so love! It’s unstable and unreliable already. Now, when we push high SR and gulp 20 potions to at least partially mitigate those spikes, we have to pay double, no, tenfold attention to these mobs, because the dispell everything including those salves and elixirs that require rare mats, which we have to spend quite a bit of time farming, because we refuse to cheat our way in the game.

So yeah, not every late game addition like this is welcome by every player. Not because we don’t know how to deal with these new situations. Not because we lack skill and can’t gid gud. Simply because it’s creating an additional nuisance where these already enough nuisances, like high SR.

[Ceno]

Now, when we push high SR and gulp 20 potions to at least partially mitigate those spikes, we have to pay double, no, tenfold attention to these mobs, because the dispell everything including those salves and elixirs that require rare mats, which we have to spend quite a bit of time farming, because we refuse to cheat our way in the game.

So yeah, not every late game addition like this is welcome by every player. Not because we don’t know how to deal with these new situations. Not because we lack skill and can’t gid gud. Simply because it’s creating an additional nuisance where these already enough nuisances, like high SR.

1. “Hardcore is too hard! Make it easier! I want to be braindead while going through the literally hardest and most intentionally unbalanced content in the game!”

2. If you’re getting nullified at highend SR I’m pretty sure you care more about your character being isntagibbed than losing a few mats.

[powbam]

So what if you miss one of these orbs and get stripped of your auras just to get instagibbed by a nem. And if it’s not making much difference, why bother? What’s the point?

Well, here’s my view: GD is a diablo-like, diablo derived from the rogue-like, the rogue-like is all about RNG, randomness - a trait the diablo-like inherited. Some people go years without ever beating (insert their favorite rogue-like here) even once!

If your above described scenario happens, well then, welcome to the rogue-like genre! You’re doing it! This is the point. This is what it’s about. Like any game: just to fucking do it because you either like or want to.

** And do note: rogue-likes are “hardcore”. You die, you start over (unless you save-scum). And I can promise you, you’re going to die. Again. And again. And again.

[Contragor]

• “Hardcore is too hard! Make it easier! I want to be braindead while going through the literally hardest and most intentionally unbalanced content in the game!”
• If you’re getting nullified at highend SR I’m pretty sure you care more about your character being isntagibbed than losing a few mats.

Don’t go there man. Hardcore is where I live both in games and real life. I make it more challenging on purpose. If you have any doubts about it - [1.1.5.0] Classless [HC] The Sentinel of Cairn
I don’t look for easy modes. And no, the last time I got RIPed in SR was the only time several months ago, when I didn’t quite know the mechanics of the new mobs. In fact, that was exactly how I learned about them, by losing 200 hours worth of gear.
Since then, I never let these heroes catch me off guard. But based on my personal observation and feedback from other HC players, I do think these mobs are a nuisance and not a way to make this game more fun. Take it as one person’s opinion and ignore if you like. But whenever a thread like this emerges, I’ll be supporting those unhappy about the existence of arcane mobs.

[powbam]

But whenever a thread like this emerges, I’ll be supporting those unhappy about the existence of arcane mobs.

And I’ll be happy to point and laugh at them and silently point to the mod tools that come packed with every copy of GD. If they don’t like it, do something about it. That’s part of the reason those tools exist, to make the game in YOUR image if you don’t agree with the devs design choices. That’s a feature, a feature most diablo’s don’t let you do.

[toapeiron]

You guys are still here? Hmm, how do I put it? Oh! I got an idea…

[Ceno]

The thing is, as you’ve proven, they are counterable/beatable and their danger can be easily negated. So how can you in one instance criticize GD for having a low skill ceiling (which is debatable in and of itself) and in the same breath criticize attempts to raise that ceiling when you’ve already surpassed it anyways?

Take it as one person’s opinion and ignore if you like.

Not really inclined to do that.

And I’ll be happy to point and laugh at them and silently point to the mod tools that come packed with every copy of GD. If they don’t like it, do something about it. That’s part of the reason those tools exist, to make the game in YOUR image if you don’t agree with the devs design choices. That’s a feature, a feature most diablo’s don’t let you do.

While I understand the point you’re trying to make, this comes off as saying that the status quo is inherently better than anything anyone else could possibly suggest and therefore all feedback should simply be silenced. Crate has proven that this is overwhelmingly not the case.

In the same vein, Crate could remove Arcane mobs and the argument could be made to add them back in via mods.

[powbam]

While I understand the point you’re trying to make, this comes off as saying that the status quo is inherently better than anything anyone else could possibly suggest and thereof all feedback should simply be silenced. Crate has proven that this is overwhelmingly not the case.

Indeed… that wouldn’t be my point My point is that if there is a sizable percentage of hardcore players who can’t handle something then you’d think the odds would favor them with at least one person with the moxy and the know-how to mod arcane mobs into something else.

Nothing wrong with feedback (feedback that consists of something more than DURR SHIT DESIGN). Also nothing wrong with modding the game to suit you. DIY baby. Get it done.

[Contragor]

The thing is, as you’ve proven, they are counterable/beatable and their danger can be easily negated. So how can you in one instance criticize GD for having a low skill ceiling (which is debatable in and of itself) and in the same breath criticize attempts to raise that ceiling when you’ve already surpassed it anyways?

Because I don’t agree with the WAY they choose to increase the skill cap. I put this on the same line with the mechanics of every little creature with healing ability able to bring Celestials back to full life in a split second. It makes very little sense to me. It’s more annoying than interesting or challenging in any way. Same thing goes for time based abilities used by bosses. Last night I killed Morgoneth in 5 sec with my top farmer. I was pissed! Felt cheated upon. Robbed of fun and excitement. So what, to fix this devs should put 10 arcane mobs around him?
There are better ways to increase the skill cap and i’d be more than happy to provide a list, if anyone really cared…

[Ceno]

Because I don’t agree with the WAY they choose to increase the skill cap.

And we’re having this conversation because the other side of the aisle ( ) fails to understand why you feel so.

I put this on the same line with the mechanics of every little creature with healing ability able to bring Celestials back to full life in a split second.

Like Arcanes, this can be very easily countered not just with better gameplay but even with better statting. Skill Disruption keeps healers from healing and most healing mobs generally have a particular model/aura about them to separate them from others.

It’s more annoying than interesting or challenging in any way.

This, to me, makes me begin to believe that you view target priority not as a measure of skill but as a nuisance if it’s as much of a necessity as it is with healers or Arcanes.

This isn’t to argue that the potency of higher-priority targets can’t get out of wack. Back in the day, Skeletal Warlocks were the most disastrously high-priority targets. This was for two reasons: their sigils used to do a lot of damage and their slows would stack and slow players to a crawl. Obviously this is no longer the case, thus being indicative that just because something can be countered doesn’t mean the lack of such a counter being employed justifies the power that that something levies against players.

But I’d argue that healers levy an appropriate volume of power against players and Arcanes possess only somewhat more still. Arcanes, however, punish mistakes whereas healers are a somewhat more “passive” danger.

So what, to fix this devs should put 10 arcane mobs around him?

No, they should increase his HP and up the threshold at which his enrage triggers.

There are better ways to increase the skill cap and i’d be more than happy to provide a list, if anyone really cared…

I care.

[sir_spanksalot]

Is that what happens right after your wet dream

I’d imagine that what usually happens right after is a series of expletives muttered under one’s breath, as the individual gropes around the cupboard for a towel in the dark.

Again.

This is speculative.

I personally wouldn’t know anything about this.

[Contragor]

Like Arcanes, this can be very easily countered not just with better gameplay but even with better statting. Skill Disruption keeps healers from healing and most healing mobs generally have a particular model/aura about them to separate them from others.

But that’s not the point. I KNOW how to counter all that nuisance, but I find having to kill every last stray dog near Korvaan Sands riftgate before engaging Callagadra to be extremely annoying. Doable? Yes! But why? Want her to be able to heal, add summons that heal her, so that we target them as those skeleton priests. Could be a better solution imo.

This isn’t to argue that the potency of higher-priority targets can’t get out of wack. Back in the day, Skeletal Warlocks were the most disastrously high-priority targets. This was for two reasons: their sigils used to do a lot of damage and their slows would stack and slow players to a crawl. Obviously this is no longer the case,

Still the case for me, as I’ve developed hatred for these and the priests, so that I always eliminate them first no matter what lol

As for Morgoneth, even if you double his HP, I’ll still eliminate him in under 10sec, not enough time for any serious damage to come my way especially given that most our defensive procs would be up for the whole time. This needs more thinking

[powbam]

As for Morgoneth, even if you double his HP, I’ll still eliminate him in under 10sec, not enough time for any serious damage to come my way especially given that most our defensive procs would be up for the whole time. This needs more thinking

Well, like you said… you used your “top-farmer”. You are getting what you advertised there. Can’t really complain about it imo. If your build is that OP then you get what you get.

[sir_spanksalot]

This game has a low skill cap no matter how you look at it.

I dunno mate. I think there’s a pretty high skill cap insofar as speed crucibles are concerned.

Its only your fault you let it wind up the 5 second delay to his dodgeble purge bolts. Which btw has the same animation as gravathul’s “lol you are fucking dead.” Bolts.

Yes and no…sometimes heals get in the way. That’s the thing I hate most.

The combination of arcane mobs, with healers capable of healing a target from outside the screen.

The thing which bothers me the most about arcane heroes isn’t the fact that they exist, moreso that they are literally indistinguishable from everything else.

Or people need to start paying more attention to slow as molasses projectile from an enemy that is so bright that it might as well have a big sign “I am arcane” above its head.

I’m afraid we’ll have to disagree, Norzan. No disrespect intended.

When your screen is literally a kaleidoscope of explosions and milling bodies, it’s impossible spot their purple nullifying missiles, and harder still to notice their very subtle (but very iconic) “hadouken” casting animation.

IMO, crate should make arcane heroes stick out like a sore thumb to actually allow for strategic playing.

But that seems unlikely to happen. Thankfully Glockengerda okay’ed my request to add a filter for arcane mobs in Grim Internals.

[Contragor]

I dunno mate. I think there’s a pretty high skill cap insofar as speed crucibles are concerned.

Right, I forgot about crucible and your favourite cooldown based glassy builds. Hey, not everyone pushes the envelope the way you do, mate!

[sir_spanksalot]

Skill Disruption keeps healers from healing and most healing mobs generally have a particular model/aura about them to separate them from others.

TL;DR - it’s not as simple as this mate.

This assumes that you first engage the healers.

It’s an open secret that I’ve been tinkering about with HC theorycrafting.

I actually plan to release two guides by the end of this week - @contragor There’s a FoI magehunter I managed 7x consecutive naked clears in HC gladiator. I think you’ll like it.

In lieu of the above, I’ve taken to testing my HC specs in SR, since it seems that that’s what will benefit the HC community the most.

What a month’s worth of testing has taught me about SR is this: Dashing into a mob to make short work of them works 99% of the time, but it’s also the surest way to get yourself killed because of arcane/healer mob combos.

Caution dictates that you first check surrounding mobs for healers before actually engaging.

[Slanter]

As a legit, self found, hardcore player - I couldn’t agree with Contragor more.

I suspect that if Crate could easily do so, they would do as has been suggested and make Arcane mobs simply disable buffs for X seconds, rather than dispel. I suspect the effort (code changes) required to make the change is not worth it effort in their opinion.

If I’m not mistaken, Arcane dispel effects do not occur in Crucible, which I think is a very good thing. I’m not sure the reason why though. Was it a balance decision? Or was it something like preventing Tribute buffs from being dispelled? Knowing the motivation for Crucible not dispelling would help argue one way or the other for SR, I think.

I am torn on this topic. Like Contragor, I think Arcane mobs in SR are fine in softcore, because they definitely spice things and up and contribute to the randomness of SR; but mainly because the penalty is infinitely less in softcore. But for hardcore, Arcane mobs actively discourage me from pushing SR. I can’t say the same thing for any other in game effect.

I will also mention that most problems/debuffs in the game can be countered in some way via preparation. You know some mobs are going to lower your resists, so you overcap resists. Freeze can be countered with freeze resist, slow with slow resist, etc. Armor does well against multiple sources of physical damage. Reflected damage can be reduced. And so on. But for the arcane dispel, the only counter is to not get hit by dispel. It’s purely skill based - except due to the randomness of SR, there will be times when no amount of skill can prevent the debuff. I’ve seen people say they make builds that don’t rely on buffs. First, that tremendously limits build diversity (which I see as bad) and again, as Contragor said, pushing high levels of SR requires pharma so even builds which use passives/gear instead of auras are going to feel the pain. And again, consumables being temporarily disabled for say 10 seconds, but then coming back on, would be so much better than losing all the time you spent farming to make those crucibles for a special night of pushing SR with your hardcore char.

I don’t think Arcane mobs are “crap design”. I think the idea of dispelling buffs is a good design, implemented poorly. if they disabled all buffs for X seconds, and there were ways to reduce the duration of the dispel (similar to reducing reflected damage), I’d applaud Arcane heroes as unique, interesting challenges, similar to Reflect heroes.

As a hardcore player, it really does stand out as something different from the rest of the game, which I would consider brutal, but very, very fair in general (hence my love of Grim Dawn).

Just like Contragor said, I shrug and move on, because I don’t see it changing. But wanted to throw my voice in.

[sir_spanksalot]

@slanter: Use Grim Internals!