I have played Grim Dawn… quite a lot. So I’ve had many ideas about improving the general gameplay experience of Grim Dawn, especially improving the challenge of the game, and yet making the game more fun by making the game’s gameplay more skill-based, and making changes to the UI that will give the players more information. Many of these are about bosses, since I think the normal mobs are reasonably difficult for most players.
Critical hits are fun. Especially when you see the text or hear the sound. Enemy criticals… not so fun. The thing is, when playing in an Roguelike dungeon. Lets say the enemy boss does 8k damage with a certain attack, and you have 15k health. It wouldn’t be a problem, if the critical hit would cause 12k damage, 30% more than the normal attack. That’s still in the realm of expectation. However, when you whole health bar suddenly disappears, it’s stupid. So, so stupid. Especially if the boss had, like, 2,5% to critically hit you. This is an offense against skill-based gameplay, especially since there is nothing you can do about it, except to raise your DA. The thing is, it lowers the number of viable builds in this game from thousands to hundreds. In a game where much of the fun comes from discovering new builds. This ties nicely to the problem of face-tanking in this game. The reason why I think face-tanking is so popular, is simply because it is the only alternative to endless kiting. The reason? You simply don’t have enough time to react when a boss does a certain attack. Or you can’t even see it, since all your skill-effects and attack are burying the boss. So for these problems, consider the following:
Making enemy crits much more weaker, or getting rid of them all together.
Increase the visibility of bosses, so players can better see what they are doing. For example, a boss could be surrounded by 3-meter radius field that makes player-effects transparent, increasing boss visibility.
Make certain boss attacks MUCH more powerful, but add more casting time. Zantarin is an excellent example, his model just happens to be so small that he usually gets buried under player effects.
Phase out “shotgunning” attack with multiple projectiles in favor of waves and area explosions. For both of them, consider attacks that employ multiple waves/explosions, for example: Zantarin’s “shotgun” would be replaced with two explosions: the first, larger, debuffs you and does some damage, and the second one, much smaller, does extreme damage. This would allow players hit by the first attack to still avoid death by moving away before the second explosion, which would trigger a second or so later. Phasing out shotgunning attacks would also help in cases where you get hit by more than one projectile. Waves wouldn’t have this problem.
Consider adding area/ground warnings and effects to warn about certain deadly attacks. Sound cues would also help out a lot.
If boss casts “turrets”, players should be given to destroy them before boss casts new ones, leaving a window of opportunity to attack the boss. In turn, the “turrets” could be made more powerful. Offenders: Moosilauke, Benn’Jahr.
Instead of casting ground DoTs, bosses would “channel” or “focus” them. For example: a boss could trap the player, then “channel” the ground DoT as long as the player is stuck in the trap. This would avoid the problem of the boss simply firing-and-forgetting the DoT. This could even make Kubacabra reasonable (IMAGINE THAT)!
UI-warnings for reduced resistances. Currently, the UI warns about DoT effects and debuffs, but uses the icon of the enemy skills. To actually help the player, the UI should warn about specific reduced resistances, without needing the player to open their character-tab or scroll over the icon. With this, you could even remove the tactic of “overcapping” resistances, as the warnings should help the players react towards the threat. Of course, if overcapping is removed, some resistance debuffs should be scaled down, such as Anasteria’s 50 PERCENT DEBUFF. Debuffs would also be cast more rarely, being truly a debuff to the player, rather than the current “When you are facing this boss your resistances are halved for the fight”.
So… that was quite the list. I hope that you will at least read this!
I understand your point, it is preferred to put a fight’s outcome more in a player’s control, though you shouldn’t remove the gear requirements completely. If everything was completely skill based, you could equip a level 1 slowing attack and defeat the hardest boss on ultimate at level 2.
Even thought a little bit more predictability would be nice, I am also not against unavoidable damage. Take executioner from SoT. If your movement speed is fast enough, you can kite him pretty well, despite his überspeed, because he needs to stand still to make a swing, and that gives you time to just get out of range. To compensate for that, he has a rooting ability he uses every so often, preventing you from running away temporarily, allowing him to at least hit you once.
The game’s bosses are mostly quite fine right now, with in my opinion a few exceptions (I haven’t actually fought all Nemeses). To mind comes Ravager, which is pretty dull (but terribly hard to beat) of an encounter due to his insane movement and attack speed.
Yeah, none of that will happen. Specially the weaker enemy crits and shotgun attacks being replaced with explosions.
And also, ARPGs were never really player skill based, at least it never did play a big role. Trying to make this genre more player skill based is basically trying to change it into a MOBA. It also removes some of the value from items in a game where grinding for loot is the main appeal.
Yes, basically. I don’t want this game to be easy by any means, and I do want it to stay as an ARPG. The thing is, there are… bosses, such as Kubacabra and most of the super bosses, that are simply DULL. That feel more like banging your head against the wall rather than actually fighting.
Not to mention, there is much content in this game that can only be beaten by certain builds, like 150-170 in Crucible.
But to give examples of boss fights I really, really enjoyed and which felt balanced and FUN:
Theodin Marcell
The Sentinel
Vanilla secret boss Clone of John Bourbon
Ekket’Zul
Warden Krieg
Commander Lucius
Jarren the Plaguewarped
Valdaran, the Storm Scourge
Yes, and that, I think, is a big reason why ARPGs lost their appeal in 2010s.
A big part of ARPGs is loot grinding. But how can you even compare it to things like MMORPGs, where grinding for loot actually gives you an edge against other players? The only thing you grind loot for in Grim Dawn is to beat things like Super Bosses and the last waves of Crucible. But those aren’t fun. The game’s best bosses, best content is available to almost any build, to almost any gear. And in loot-based mindset, where you expect harder content to be better, that is a total letdown.
Those aren’t fun to you, not to other people. Gathering loot to make your character stronger so that you can kill the toughest enemies in the game is the main appeal of this genre to me and many people. Making this game more player skilll based makes loot less useful when you can literally kill anything with subpar gear.
None of these suggestions will happen because the current stage of development. This game was officially released two years ago and has one expansion with another coming up. What you are asking, specially when it seems related to changing old enemies, is just asking for way too much. A lot balancing would be needed and it’s just not worth it.
And if you feel like ARPGs lost their appeal, then go play something else. I’m sure there’s a genre out there to satisfy you player base skill needs.
For example, I tend to take all my characters to a spot where they just facetank, laugh and destroy all the bosses you described in really short times. So for me skill lies in exploiting game’s mechanics and optimizing your builds to the point where their performance is at its peak.
Putting a skill element into ARPG always felt awkward to me. You want skill, play something like Dark Souls, where ARPG element is dumbed down a lot.
I am not sure ARPGs lost their appeal. There are now genres that did not exist before and some players moved to them because they like those new genres better, but that to me does not mean ARPGs lost their appeal, just look at the D3 sales numbers.
A big part of ARPGs is loot grinding. But how can you even compare it to things like MMORPGs, where grinding for loot actually gives you an edge against other players? The only thing you grind loot for in Grim Dawn is to beat things like Super Bosses and the last waves of Crucible.
I could not care less about having an edge over other players, I am not interested in PvP or even in being online at all.
Not only that it released May 2012 and by 2015 with RoS it had 30+ million sales and became the 10th best selling PC game ever. And that was 3 years ago so who knows where it stands now.
PoE began dev in 2007/2008, publicly announced in 2010, while acquiring over $2 million in crowd-sourced contributions in the beta period leading up to release late-Oct. 2013 . By 2014 it had over 5 million registered players. It currently ranks at 15 in the Steam Charts for most current players @22K. It has been up to 90K.
Grim Dawn starts its journey in 2009/2010, entering Steam EA late-2013, release early-2016 with well over a million sales of the base game and good reviews all-around.
The first Torchlight released late-2009. By 2015 over 2 million sales. Torchlight 2 released late-2012. By 2015 over 3 million sold.
The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 1-3 released from 2013 thru 2015. Some people like them alot, not I. I have no idea how well they did with them financially. Well enough to churn out 3 of them tho.
Victor Vran… 2015. Like the VH games above it has its fans.
Notable games in the works… Wolcen and Lost Ark Online (Korean MMO but from what little I’ve seen it appears it may fall in the Diablo-like arena in how it plays). I do believe there are other games in the works as well.
Nah, can’t say it appears they’ve lost their appeal. The genre has leaned toward a more online presence tho, thanks to D3/PoE, and some casualization (as the kids like to say) but GD and others show that there is still room for those of us who enjoy the solitary life.
It will probably be a good bit before we ever see a GD2 but I have high hopes that Crate, hopefully still flush with money by that point after whatever other projects they pursue, can do it justice and push the genre forward in their own way. Preferably without shackling us completely online… and hopefully they continue to throw the modders out there a bone.
You can not wait constructive critism or support from this forum because they liked this game exactly whatever it is… They got used to it, they adapted it this way thus any style or big change is not welcomed. Like dota2 or diablo they have big changes most of the time and they do not lose their dedicated base fans. They adapt to new styles and move on. However most of GD base community is like asocial boy who is in puberty and fears outside thus big changes are like going outside for them.
I want boss fights to be more fun, eventful and not very very very gear dependent. Yes celestials must require some gear but with perfect gameplay i want them be able to be beaten.
And it is true, ARPG is losing its popularity if you compared it to its peak times. Because now every game started to implement level, item or skill progression thus they are not unique anymore.
Disagree. This game has changed so much from when it was first released in early alpha. Yes, people have been unhappy about some things - I for one was very unhappy that they dropped the rebirth fountain system from TQIT for example. But I got used to not having it.
I’m hoping this new game mode is a big change in many ways so very hyped for that.
or from you it seems, whenever you post you complain about this community instead of posting anything useful, not sure why you are even around
And it is true, ARPG is losing its popularity if you compared it to its peak times. Because now every game started to implement level, item or skill progression thus they are not unique anymore.[/b]
when was the peak according to you ? Also, if all other games adopt ARPG features like level and skill progression, this pretty much proves the opposite of people losing interest in them.
Calm down, why offense taken? " if the shoe fits wear it " it seems
Their genre does not change, that is why. Just because implementing some small arpg like features does not make it an arpg game. It is still modern shooter, or action etc. People get bored only ARPG features and wanted to combine it with many action stuff. Look at modern fpses or popular genres; God of war, Shadow of war, dota2, COD,FC etc. They are the new popularity.
Just because GD sold over millions this does not show genre is still very popular. It only shows genre is not dead. Because other genres are reaching over 100m.
World is bigger than your thoughts. Just because you like arpgs, it does not mean world will do too.
And just because genre isn’t that popular, doesn’t mean it has to be. Any move that would make GD be closer to AAA games will just dumb down the game because that’s the formula to making bestselling games. Make it so simple it would appeal to everyone and everyone buys it. That’s not bad, but if Crate really wanted to do that then they would’ve created exactly just that. And don’t take Dota as an example.of a hard game that attracts millions, because as much as I love dota, lol still has a much larger playerbase than it.
Fps have always been popular. And 30 million copies sold of D3 back in June 2015 argues that ARPGs are still pretty popular too.
There will always be big players and small players in any genre. The trick is to find a niche and then exploit it. With GD Crate has done that very well, tapping into the market who aren’t interested in the sort of things other games like D3 offer. As Medierra’s said before he wants to make games he wants to play. He took a chance using an old play style with an old engine, but the team have made it work and work well. There’ll never be a big market for older style ARPGs, but it’s still a market that can be exploited since it’s been ignored by the big players.
So like I ought to be able to win by rolling my face over the keyboard?
Has its merits, I suppouse.
Anything I need to use keyboard is kinda tedious, I give you that and I sorta like to keep my other hand free for other things.
There´s after all a difference between one needs skills to know how to react in situations (a slightly bigger icons for DoTs, debuffs etc) could help here AND havin so many skills, that a bit clumsy oaf like me who lacks in finess/reactions speed department meaning the “skill” part comes from fast reactions and tiny, nimble fingers.
This was what you were talking about, yeah?
If you mean story bosses, they are not very gear dependant. If you mean optional bosses like Nemeses, making them not very gear dependant makes loot lose its value, because they are one of the reasons you want high end loot.
And the reason me and some people disagree with you is because a lot of your suggestions are uninformed and don’t take how the game is actually built into consideration. You just suggest things that would require a ton of balancing and shifting things around and you think that’s easy.
And are you serious about ARPGs not being popular? PoE (even if it’s free) is one of the most played games on Steam. Diablo 3 is one of the best selling games of ALL time.
I also absolutely loathe this “we need to follow current trends to stay popular” or this genre “needs to evolve to stay popular”. Not every genre in existence needs to do either. Popularity isn’t everything.
I never said the world does not like anything but ARPGs, heck that is not even true for me…
GD is not the only ARPG though, D3 sold 30+M copies, so forget about God of War getting anywhere near that. CoD is somewhere in that range but selling about as many copies does not exactly show that ARPGs are not popular, let alone that they lost popularity (at most it shows they are not the most popular genre, but I don’t think they ever were, so you have shown nothing at all).
