July 29:
We know that these retaliation changes are supposed to keep conversion-based retaliation in line after Cunning/Spirit boost being removed, but those non-conversion physical retaliation is also going to benefit from those skill buffs. Stoneguard WL, for example.
I’ll keep an eye on this and have some tests as long as the PTR is availabe and when I’m free.
Note on July 31:
Tomorrow is Monday and the end of my summer vacation so I may have no free time.
August 3:
I’ve done some tests. While monsters’ AI changes a lot in CR, Ravager of Mind is chosen to be the test target to see how these physical retal builds (ele2phys DE DK, ele2phys RF WL, Stoneguard WL, and Non-set RF WL) change. Here are the results:
ele2phys retal builds improve a lot due to Beronath changes and Soldier and Oathkeeper buffs. Though they are still weeker in fighting Ravager than non-conversion ones because of Ravager’s high armor, I believe they are now acceptable in running CR, without the CR AI changes. Thus no further suggestion will be given on them until CR AI issue improves or a new common expectation comes.
As for the non-conversion ones. They also benefit from the Soldier and Oathkeeper buffs, so their changes should be judged with their performance both in v1.1.9.6 and in PTR. Stoneguard WL performs pretty well and is widely accepted in v1.1.9.6 so there is no need to buff it. It’s now a little over performing. Non-set retal RF WL is a little bit weeker than Stoneguard one so it should be accepted if non-set in PTR August 3 is similar to/a bit weeker than Stoneguard in v1.1.9.6.
So my suggestions are:
reduce % physical retalitation damage on Stoneguard Set (2-piece) by 40(or 30).
leave others alone.
Suggestions above are based on there principles:
The relatively stronger one should get nerfs before they come to the weeker one, and the relatively weeker one should get buffs before they come to the stronger one.
For physical retal builds, CR clear time should be 5:45ish(without the new AI issue), which is on the slower side but not too slow.
This is probably too early for a nerf suggestion, but stoneguard did seem to get more from the buffs compared to nonset rf warlord. Hint hint shattering smash double taps. I don’t think stoneguard needs a nerf tho. Outside ravager (which is a good retal build’s best matchup) your aoe still suffers.
Even after the suggested 30/40 %physical retal reduction, it will be still stronger than it was in v1.1.9.6. If you think stoneguard is doing just fine in v1.1.9.6 then I don’t think the tuning-back suggestion improper.
We all know that Z prefers nerfing to balance rather than buffing. I’d like to see non-set physical retal get a touch of extra buff to catch up with stoneguard, some % retal damage to M Avenger of Cairn for example, so that everyone could be happy. But Z won’t choose the buffing way I guess.
According to some studies I’ve read, some people turn blind when buffs are suggested and done due to something called ‘only bitching due to nerfs’ disorder. Forgive him, he’s just sick. He’ll get better.
Or maybe we just suggest more nerfs so their eyes stay open? Zantai how about we nerf dawnseeker to the ground?
August 5:
AI changes’ influence on retal builds is much more serious than I thought and may be more serious than on other builds. Monsters just don’t come close and thus I have much less things to retaliate. Even Warcry can’t draw monsters close. What’s more, some monsters with big size, would walk away even when it can attack you without moving.
Stoneguard WL is doing 6:15ish even after today’s fix and retal buffs in PTR. Non-set is doing 6:30-6:45ish. Damn it!
ah yes,everytime i first see nerf and comments and look like fool.then read it again and see buffs to and good changes to,its happens every god damn time
@anon94264551 How did Beronath Retal DE work for you currently? Is it better in 9.7 than in 9.6? Asking cause it’s been a long time since I made a beronath setup and then I made one now and it sucks. Phys retal DE from acid conversion is still better despite suffering some nerfs.
Oppressor, Level 100 (GD 1.1.9.6) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator - Beronath Retal DE Oppressor. 5:40-6 min cruci after the ai went back to old system. And this is nowhere as tanky as the warlords. This got buffed in the most recent build with aegis too.
This time I built fire towers for armor reduction and thus those conversion-based performed much better along with retal changes. Among conversion-based ones, DE is definately better than RF because of higher RtA and bigger target area, but DE DK is also of less tankiness. Outside of CR where there is no fire towers, DE becomes the worse one because DE has lower retal sheet and doesn’t have non-retal physical part.
Stoneguard RF WL with Zolhan is better than it in v1.1.9.6, with no doubt. It was 5:45ish in v1.1.9.6 and now it’s 5:30ish-5:45ish. A small imrovement. Non-set RF WL with Zolhan has a similar improvement from 5:45ish-6:00ish to 5:45ish, but it haven’t caught up with Stoneguard yet, even that its retal sheet is higher. RtA difference between non-set and stoneguard is a little significant, so I made the 5th test to see how weak the RtA of Retribution is. I took Colossal Fortress instead of Zolhan’s Revenge to remove RtA to Zolhan’s Technique and build another non-set version. Its CR clear time in PTR August 6 is 6:00ish-6:15ish. We can see that without the RtA modifier to Zolhan’s Technique, it became even worse. So I think for the next step of physical retal we should pay attention to:
Narrow the RtA gap between Stoneguard and Non-set a little bit.
Try to buff Colossal Fortress a bit, but not simply in values. Maybe a small RtA modifier to CS, 7% maybe.
Retal DE? I’m not sure. Let’s see what advice @x1x1x1x2 has.
This isn’t phys but I tested @banana_peel and @Valinov’s Pierce Retal Aegis and it’s pretty much nullified the bug fixes on converted retal, maybe even better - around 4:30ish average on cruci:
I dunno what to say about this cause I’m not advocating any nerf to aegis conduit right now due to the fact it’s gonna hurt phys variant. Also, I wonder what banana and valinov have to say about this but I don’t think they’re testing retals right now.
Also, made a Turrion build (Commando, Level 100 (GD 1.1.9.6) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator) and I still think it lacks damage. Did 2 runs, the first is 6:02 with a bad 170 and the second I didn’t even wanna complete the run cause 151-160 is too slow with armored+toughened.
I’d drop tree for more damage but then it’s gonna become the squishiest retal build after that. What’s the use of a build only valid for buffed crucible if that build completes in 5:30?
I think the reliance of converted retal gimps retal DE a lot because you have to choose between good retal numbers and cast speed, which are both needed cause of the nature of DE as a channeling spell. I don’t think it needs more RTA but cast speed instead on the amulet and probably more on the shield. Also I still stand by my suggestion to remove phys to vit on the shield even tho it might leave a bad taste on some people.
Fire tower is better than lightning tower when you are playing conversion-based physical retal builds, because of its powerful armor reduction.
But you are right. No use of a build only valid when you have to take fire towers to bring it to a acceptable stage.
Yep, and that’s definately because of the goddamn phys2vit conversion on that shield.