Rah’zin Witchblade yes, using Cadence and not the granted skill which got nerfed this patch.
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Try running Beronath component on a Rah’Zin and see. If it’s not that much worse means Touch of Chaos is really crap.
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I see a lot of chaos items about to get nerfed
Top runners are averaging in the 415 or lower range now across a ton of builds of all types. Physical everything it seemed like although some nerfs now, passthrough ranged, the usual casting options. Most of these runs don’t get posted (banana does when evidence is needed), or subpar 430ish results get posted into build threads to try to avoid nerfing. But then when something performs 430 at best, and then gets nerfed but is still in the sub 5 established balance zone, there is a huge disconnect between parties. Because now there is a 30-45 second gap which is like 15% slower and is noticable. Also Z is a facist style enemy that should both know the abilities of every build ever and is also totally incompetent.
Ta da
because patch 9.4 needed to get out quick because of Xbox fixes he simply didn’t have time to nerf all the other chaos builds, yet 
but no worries, it’s coming, it’s never too late for a nerf 
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One aspect of this game that never ceases to entertain me is how the fellow veteran builders freak out when their builds become 10 seconds slower after a nerf.
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Back in my day 5 minute runs were tip top! “Under five minutes? You’re dreamin’ son.” Kids these days with their fancy 4 minute runs, got no gratitude I says. Can’t remember the hard days when Chaos didn’t even have a set, was just that ugly little red-headed step-child no one wanted (but secretly everyone loved).
Zantai please be a good sport and buff the Raisin set skill to super fresh to the max so us old timers can, what’s it called, ROFLstoMP I think, these kiddies with some 3 minute times! Then we can have a jolly laugh as the old tip-top becomes instant grody!!!
Good day!
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It’s not about the crucible timers and how people feel about them. It’s about Zantai organizing this amazing playtest thing and then (sometimes) making pretty big balancing decisions that are somewhat disconnected with what people bring him. Afaik, Rah’Zin was never overperforming outside some dummy kill records from ages ago.
lol
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I upload all runs on youtube though and don’t hide anything.
If one wanted to nerf a build based on the best sub 4:30 run, they would have to nerf more than half of legendaries and green items. The Crucible became faster (and deadlier) with lower timers in best runs.
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But expecting many people, most of all developers in charge of balancing the game’s numbers to seek them out when they have better things to do 95% of the time? Hmmmm… 
.
There’s no point making statements as supposed fact when you have the videos as evidence and don’t link them which you did in the Rah’Zin thread here for example:
Hence leading to the replies you received above:
And before you reply, your word or really anyone’s on testing builds and significant changes shouldn’t just be taken at face value, believed and changes promptly made without some proof on the matter which prompted this reply as well:
Do not put words in my mouth, thank you.
Small sample size of runs was irrelevant to the topic, instead i showed that a component granted skill has the same dps as 4 piece granted skill which makes you question why is it even exist anymore.
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Ok, now i’m really tired of this.
Talking to people who doesn’t play Crucible on a regular basis. How many of you understand that a speedrunner can make a 5:30 timer on a 4:40 capable build and you wouldn’t notice the suboptimal play? This is a general thing that applies to all sports-like activities: you can play a little worse and it would be hard to track with naked eye.
So. When the balance decisions are made based on recorded Crucible runs, the one who makes them automatically puts a HUGE trust in the runner: that, say, the presented 5:35 run shows the build capabilities and is not in any way a manipulation to buff already strong build. I thought that at least experienced players and Zantai understand all this. Maybe i was wrong?
I guess this led me into falsely beleiving that since that trust is put into my videos for the purpose of balance decisions, i myself earned some trust on statements about the matter i’m wastly experienced in, in this case Rah’zin.
That’s why i decided to support the statement with raw, objective numbers of ToC dps compared to a component granted skill instead of juggling around small sample selection of videos of builds only i know true performance of.
Am I wrong though? If you had the videos when you were making that statement regarding Chaos RF, Chaos FS, Chaos Cadence etc., why wouldn’t you include them to better illustrate your case?
You even finally did it in this thread when further prompted to and yet could have done so sooner and perhaps seen some attempts at tweaking Rah’Zin/Chaos melee with the released 1.1.9.4 patch like you wanted.
Seriously, remember that at the end of the day you are trying to convince Zantai, not me, not someone else, not yourself. Give him what he has generally been asking for in virtually every high end balancing feedback topic and no one complains unless it’s a dispute/difference on player goalpost expectations vs his expectations for build performance.
It doesn’t matter. It’s just a bad manner, isn’t it obvious?
I’ve covered this in the next comment.
I still have to reply to the jabs against me in the topic i’ve made. I WISH i didn’t have to.
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No, you don’t. From the FAQ:
" 3. Just because somebody posts on the internet does not mean that you have to reply to it.
Someone post something that makes you really angry? Don’t answer. Or take some time to cool off and post in a mature and constructive manner later. Senseless back and forth internet arguments that are based purely on subjective or emotional responses are a waste of your time and ours."
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The reaction is not emotional. It doesn’t apply to the cases like this when the comments (with the intention or not) undermine the topic. You could argue that everyone has their head on the shoulders to make an unbiased judgment but practice have shown the opposite: if i’ve made a topic, i have to reply to the comments on the topic i disagree with.
But that can’t be right!
Wow it’s been like 4 years since I think I was last part of this conversation. I believe I was on your side of things when I was arguing for improvements to Troll Rage because, at the time, it was pretty unique.
Fact of the matter is that autoattack replacers from items are intended to be relatively equally powerful regardless of their source. Set bonus? Component? Doesn’t matter. If Touch of Chaos was outperforming Beronath’s Fury, then that implies either that Touch of Chaos should have been nerfed or Beronath’s Fury should have been buffed, and I don’t think “Beronath” and “Buff” will ever be seen in a single bullet point in patchnotes.
I reiterate and slightly rephrase my previous comment: Is this Rah’zin feedback, or is this Touch of Chaos feedback?
Item granted autoattack replacers usually aren’t meant to be anything particularly stellar because they’re in most cases kinda “free”. No skillpoints required, granted alongside other (usually substantial) stat improvements (such as an entire four piece set). They’re there as a means to enable certain builds’ playability, but often times the items they’re on can be better used without making use of the autoattack skill itself. I, myself, saw Rah’zin and immediately thought about using it on Cadence Witchblade, paying no attention to the autoattack skill whatsoever…though I might be biased as the Cadence guy. It doesn’t surprise me or strike me as problematic that a build that puts 40 points into an autoattack’s skill line outperforms one that doesn’t.
Which is relatively fine - nothing wrong with seeing where the disagreement stems from and reinforcing your own view. All the better if you also see where the disagreement comes from and respect the other person’s opinion if it’s valid putting aside any personal bias you have. Responses should usually try to add to the discussion as well or try and move things along smoothly.
This on the other hand I don’t really consider adding anything of note/worthwhile to the main topic of Rah’Zin at hand. Perhaps it’s just me.
Fleshwarped strikes and Belgo strikes are stronger, and Runebinder AA is much stronger than Beronath which proves that each AA is a separate balance case.
This. Which is also why I often find it odd to pick one piece out of a build, in this case Touch of Chaos, and compare it in a vacuum with another piece. I’m of the opinion and always have been that builds should be viewed in the big picture.
Let me propose a situation to you out of pure curiosity @banana_peel: Hypothetically, lets say that next update a ToC Witch Hunter with the current replacer numbers unchanged/still similar to Beronath but tweaks made elsewhere to increase damage can complete Crucible in 4:30 while being consistent. Lets say Beronath is 10 seconds faster with the same consistency.
Do you still think any changes need to be made to ToC in this situation? Yes a 4-piece granted skill is weaker than a component granted skill but both builds fall into the currently accepted clear time brackets with fairly marginal difference between both.