[REL] Grimarillion

In addition to what jiaco said, as the developer and maintainer of Zenith, I don’t really care for enabling staffs with Cadence in Outrider, but I did just enable them for Sunder. As jiaco ported Zenith and Grim Quest into grimarillion, one of the things he and I did was enable spears/staves on various skills throughout the Zenith masteries. I believe the order of events was that he came up with an initial release enabling such weapons, and then merged in the rest of my changes; his must have enabled staves on Cadence/Sunder, but mine hadn’t.

TL;DR you experienced a merge conflict between our separate developments. Staves will be enabled on Sunder in a future release of Zenith, but not on Cadence.

thank you for all of your kindness, patience and wonderful work.

Hi guys.

First I just want to say this is a great mod and I am really enjoying it and appreciate the hard work that has gone into it.

For the last couple of weeks I’ve been toying around with all the classes and have noticed a few things. Mainly, that the Outrider is so far and away above all others in power. (At least through normal and most of the way into elite).

Take the Cadence line for example. 36 points to max out the skill line (plus mastery investment). You can do this by about level 25.
Cadence itself is a very powerful skill at 12/12 and better than most other classes attacks. It’s 180% main hand damage and adds over 100 each acid, cold and vit damage. And all for 16 energy. Yes 16! Wow, so low, much nice.
Moving onto the next skill in the line, Shotgun. At 8/8 it adds a 50% chance to release 4(!) projectiles and adds even more flat damage.

This is quite insane if you think about it. If you hit a monster with all the projectiles (which is quite easy to do, they are quite focused, just stand a few metres away) you absolutely melt them. This is particularly noticeable when fighting bosses. I have absolutely destroyed every single boss/hero pack so far into elite difficulty. The shotgunning mechanic on such an already beastly skill just trivialises encounters.

Next in line you have 8/8 Shrapnel Shot and 8/8 Suppressant. These just pile on more AoE and even MORE damage modifiers on top of the already insane damage output.

The best part is, Shotgun, Shrapnel Shot and Suppressant have no downsides at all. They don’t add any more to the energy cost of using Cadence. You get all of this power for 16 energy. You can spam this skill all day long and never, ever come close to running out of energy. I have not used one spirit potion while playing this character.

Now couple this with what I think is the most over powered aura in the mod, the Engine of War line. At 12/12 this aura adds over 100 cold, acid and vit damage, 118 offensive ability and regenerates 18 energy per second. For a cost of 110 (next to nothing) energy reservation.

This is another huge DPS boost and basically guarantees you will never run out of energy. From there you can get Engine of Peace which boosts your resists and defensive ability quite significantly and again, no extra cost to the aura.

So, what is the result of all this? Well, I can clear entire screens, wreck every boss pack with shotgunning mechanics, never run out of energy and basically kill 100x faster than any of my other characters, pretty much right from the get go. The act bosses for example, I kill in < 10 seconds on this character. Those fights took minutes on my other characters.

Let’s compare the Cadence line to a few other skills.
Take Fireball from the Elementalist tree. At rank 1, this skill alone costs 16 energy to use, which is as much as the entire maxed out Cadence skill line.
The Fireball projectile itself is rather slow moving (compared to Cadence, which is almost instant.) It also costs 36 skill points to fully upgrade, shotguns with the +projectile nodes (although is much less focused and hitting a mob with every projectile can be difficult unless you are right in their face), has a 100% damage modifier and yet it still doesn’t come close to the raw damage output of Cadence.
And the real kicker is the energy cost. Full upgraded this skill will set you back nearly 150 energy per cast.

Now let’s take the Marksmanship line in the Hunting mastery. Fully upgraded the skill doesn’t cost much to use which is good, but it does nowhere near the damage of Cadence and has no AoE. The added passive AoE of Gouge only has a 25% chance to trigger but can only hit 3 targets max and it does pretty poor damage (comparatively).

I could go on about other skills for days but you get the idea.

When you compare all this, a Cadence Outrider ends up ripping though pack after pack while never slowing down and your poor little Elementalist is left running around like a headless chicken on the first pack, waiting for his spirit potion to come off cooldown.

It’s rather hilarious in multiplayer actually. My mate and I did a playthrough of normal and into early elite. He was on a Cadence Outrider, and me playing a Fireball Elementalist. Well, by the time my Fireballs had made it to the monsters, they were already dead and it was time to collect loot. It was like running around with my own personal gatling gun that never ran out of ammo. I probably did about 1% of the overall damage over the course of the playthrough.

The problem here is two-fold. The sheer amount of damage increases in the Outrider skill tree and the huge AoE shotgunning mechanic that Cadence receives on a very high proc chance (1/2), along with the next-to-nothing energy cost and small investment required in both skills and items, puts Cadence far ahead of any other skill I’ve tried. (By orders of magnitude).

Oh I almost forgot. You can add a devotion skill to the three passive skills in the Cadence line. Three devotion procs off one attack? Yes please.

Admittedly, playing a Cadence Outrider is the most fun I’ve had in the game. The screen meltiness is awesome, and it is hard to go back to playing another mastery after being so powerful. Again, I have only played this into Elite difficulty so I can’t speak for Ultimate.

Anyway, I really feel like this mastery could do with being brought down a few pegs (and/or other masteries seriously lifted). Removing some of the damage increases and increasing the energy costs on the skills would be a good start.

As for other masteries, removing the max target caps on their AoE abilities could help close the gap. I have many ideas for other skills to help bridge the balance gaps but this post is getting really long.

Thanks for the great mod, keep up the good work.
Snrub.
:smiley:

Thanks for the feedback. I am sure Ceno and Asylum would love to read walls of text with this sort of feedback, so when you have time, feel free to suggest/comment away.

Combining Cornucopia (which is about balance but WIP) and Zenith (which is evidently more focused on fun than balance) and Grim Quest (which is focused on recreation of TQ masteries and not so much about balance with respect to GD/Cornucopia/Zenith masteries (nor for that matter, Grimmest spawns)), was never about achieving global balance. Grimarillion was more intended to be a single mod that you could use to play pretty much anyway you want, so it is quite up to the user to choose masteries and combos depending on their mood. It is up to us to keep the save data compatible and the mod updated so that you can continue to make combos over time and not loose any of your early toons as things change.

But as I said, Ceno and Asylum are likely very interested in your feedback. I can already anticipate an energy cost increase coming for Cadence et al (Outrider).

I’m not sure what this comparison is supposed to tell me. Is it that hunting it’s weak or outrider is ludicrously powerful? If hunting is weak, I disagree. I have taken the class through normal, by act 3 I was vaporizing entire sceens worth of enemies

Also, why do you say marksmanship has no aoe? The limitation on enemies hit for gouge is a melee only limit. Piercing projectiles is a form of aoe is it not? Multiple projectiles from volley only add to that. What about the fragments on scattershot arrows? I haven’t played outrider so I can’t assess your comparison, but I can tell you that marksmanship is anything but weak, especially when paired with volley and gouge. (And other wps)

I read through the individual mods threads and considered the design goals of the authors.

I’ve played most masteries up to about level 50. Some are of course a bit more generous in their ease of play than others but this is to be expected of course and perfect balance in a game like this is a rather unrealistic goal.
For the record I feel like most of the masteries are quite well balanced and are fun to play in their own right.

But then you have the Cadence Outrider. It’s just so, so far and away over the top. Where this stuck out most was like I said, multiplayer. We’ve had to ban it from future adventures just because it leaves the other person wishing they’d picked Outrider :smiley:

In fact, after playing it I felt rather dejected. Although it’s fun to plow through hordes of enemies and 2-3 shot bosses, the increased challenge that the mod brought to the table, which really appealed to me, had been basically nullified.

Single player this isn’t really a huge issue I guess and like you said, it gives you another option to play with depending on your mood. Want to completely destroy everything with ease? Sure, have a bash with Outrider. Feel like a more challenging game? Pick anything else, but after playing an Outrider, it might leave you feeling like some of the other masteries just don’t cut the mustard.
The power imbalance between Outrider and the other masteries is just that huge.
So yeah, if that’s fine with the authors then I don’t mind and I will just not play it in multiplayer. Personally, I would make some changes along the lines of what I detailed in the post above.

The other main thing I mentioned above was the max target caps on some of the AoE skills. I feel like these really need to go. They are very restrictive and I don’t find them “fun” at all. Especially when the target cap is 3. And you are staring down a horde of 50 monsters. It can make combat feel a bit clunky and needlessly drawn out, especially when comparing to other skills which have no such caps and feel much more “fun” and intuitive to use, such as Cadence, Fireball, PRM, Callidor’s Tempest etc.

I feel like these small tweaks, while making things slightly easier for some masteries, would generally bring more fun to the player and wouldn’t impact the design philosophies of their creators by much if anything at all.

" Is it that hunting it’s weak or outrider is ludicrously powerful? If hunting is weak, I disagree. I have taken the class through normal, by act 3 I was vaporizing entire sceens worth of enemies"

Outrider is ludicrously powerful.
You’re right Marksmanship does have some AoE, I was just comparing it to Cadence. I wouldn’t say Hunting is weak either, I have played it through all of normal and had fun. Marksmanship IS good and Wood Lore and Herbal Remedy are powerful abilities, actually. Just comparatively, it’s like using a muzzle-loading musket vs a GAU-8.

Hah, OK I understand now, thanks.

I’ve read and appreciate the feedback, and will test out a Cadence Outrider to around level 60 when I have the time.

I’m curious, though; what are your % damage values?

The reason Engine of War gives so much flat damage is to account for my plans of itemization in Zenith. I plan on keeping % damage well below what we’re seeing in vanilla Grim Dawn, so as to do my best to keep some skills from being good if-and-only-if you have toptier gear, and I plan on keeping damage in general fairly restricted from items aside from base weapon damages, so that skills are the main avenue by which players play the game.

Your comparison with the Elementalist confuses me. Strictly speaking, the numbers just aren’t there; Elementalist ought to have the single highest damage output out of every mastery in Zenith, barring successive Evocation of Terror/Railgun casts due to Outrider’s CDR cancellation. Is it a matter of the projectile speed of Fireball not functioning satisfactorily, or have you just not maxed out the skill? Fireball is primarily meant to be an AoE skill, but since you can shotgun enemies with it, it winds up being an incredibly potent single-target skill as well.

TL;DR I’ve warned in the past that Zenith masteries are not balanced for vanilla Grim Dawn in mind. It may be that you’re experiencing that. Or it may be that Outrider is, in fact, too strong, which isn’t impossible considering I’ve made no nerfs to the mastery, only select buffs. Whatever the case may be, I invite you to continue to test Outrider and/or the other masteries, as I’ve received limited feedback with any of the masteries other than Terror Knight, and of that I’ve only been told it’s OP in combination with Fangshi…which is without question overpowered.

Hi,

I’m playing on v0.1.9 and there is a plethora of “Tag not found: TagSkillClassName” on my select character screen (even the Rift/Champion I’ve just created).

Did you enter the mod and then return to main menu?

Tags are not loaded before you actually start the mod.

I get the bacon, but does not appear in my inventory. What it look like?

I’ve tried to select main game to “load” main game, then I came back to custom game grimarillion and still no tag

You have to load the mod for the mod tags to work.

How will the game know the mod tags if the mod isn’t loaded? They aren’t built into the game engine itself.

So when you start the game, initially, it only loads the base game files so it has no idea what a custom mastery is. Simply selecting the mod, Grimarillion in this case, from the custom game option only tells the game what to load. The game only loads these files after you select a character and enter the game.

I don’t think I have to take it to 60.

Bringing an Outrider to 25 revealed enough issues that I think I know how to move forward. Cadence doesn’t feel all too strong in my opinion, I think it could use a buff to be honest. But I’ll save that for a later date. For now, Engine of War will be receiving a substantial nerf in the form of a complete removal of the flat damage. I have something to add to it so that it doesn’t feel completely terrible, however.

I didn’t think Outrider Cadence seemed too bad - indeed the last Outrider I made was with Soldier so I could use the other Cadence instead.

The skill that bothers me most with Outrider is Pneumatic Surge. With few points invested it is basically garbage: if I’m taking a lot of damage then perhaps I cast it but since it has a casting time there’s a good chance I will take more damage than gets healed due to being stood still for a fraction of a second. The cast time also makes it a lousy way to get some “passive” regen.

Even without a casting time it would seem under-budgeted (compare to Pneumatic Burst, for instance).

Oh, there wasn’t supposed to be a cast time, that was a bug. Fixed.

Otherwise it literally has the stats of Pneumatic Burst + Breath of Belgothian, but features no weapon requirements.

What do you mean by “load the mod”?

I went to custom game > Grimarillion ~ world001.map then click on accept, can I do something else to “load the mod”.

I did it twice already and I still have a lot of tag not found

Can somebody PLEASE give me a hint on how to play with the Riftstalker - that nigga seems to have not-bad synergies, but can’t really get the hang on him… :frowning:

Outrider + Arcanist = tagNotfound
Demo + Arcanist = “Sorcerer/ess” instead Sorcerer or Sorceress