SPOILER ALERT: Lore Discussion

Anasteria.

That’s right, I forgot about her. Her shoulder guard are very powerful. :slight_smile:

From the latest dev stream, a expansion spoiler. Be ready for this one :slight_smile:

I had only skimmed this thread a while ago, but did anyone notice that the icon/page for cleansing a corrupted shrine is the same as the one that’s almost certainly Korvaak’s? Is this nothing, or a placeholder? Or just more proof that Korvaak is Bad News (not that that’s already obvious).

Also, a secondary mission string for the order looking into Korvaak a bit would be cool, and would fit their pursuit of knowledge, but is not likely to happen, admittedly.

Noticed a bit of an interesting trend while searching through my loottables (shameless plug). Prepare for a wall of text.

It seems that certain species of Chthonian enemies follow a particular naming structure unique to that species. This isn’t true for all of them, though.

Named Chthonian Harbinger Heroes (except for those like ~ Shielded, Defender, etc.) are suffixed with 'Daroth:

  • Charn’Daroth
  • Elnar’Daroth
  • Fos’Daroth
  • Ordran’Daroth
  • Pulv’Daroth

Named Chthonian Leech Heroes (including generic archetypes) are suffixed with 'Anatu:

  • Vom’Anatu
  • Gawtok’Anatu
  • Ekket’Anatu
  • Orudin’Anatu ~ Diseased
  • Yakwa’Anatu ~ Unstoppable

This is mostly it, however. There are what I call the Thels, though, among the Chthonian Fiends:

  • Sen’Thel Voidbringer
  • Nii’Thel ~ Bruiser

I don’t know whether this is just a case of Apophenia, but if it isn’t, there may be some interesting implications here for the naming scheme (or the lack thereof for other Chthonian species). I’ve got a couple theories. My theories make the most sense under the assumption that the void, as a physical entity, is Ch’thon himself (which is maybe confirmed? Dunno; I’ve forgotten if it was).

I think it could be that there’s a hierarchy among the individual Chthonian races based on their connection to Ch’thon, e.g., based on how they first spawned from the abyssal void. Chaotic creatures like Harbingers and Leeches seem rather detached from physical planes; Harbingers hover along without much effort and Leeches seem as though to directly suck blood from anywhere into the void. This perhaps suggests that they are a piece of the void itself, or - in other words - a piece of Ch’thon.

If that’s true, the numbers above get to me. 5 named 'Daroths, 5 named 'Anatus, and 2 named 'Thels. I was considering that perhaps the Daroths and Anatus are five fingers of a hand of Ch’thon, being that Ch’thon is at least vaguely humanoid (as evidenced in the Dying God constellation). Then perhaps the Thels are Ch’thon’s eyes? That’d at least explain why one of them has such an illustrious title like ‘Voidbringer’. I don’t think it’s too far fetched, given that Ch’thon’s very voice was capable of manifesting in the Loghorrean, but then again, these creatures emerged from the Void without a massive undertaking from the Cult of Ch’thon (at least, to our knowledge), so perhaps this connection is either nonexistent or merely a position of royalty (kind of like the Mouth of Sauron).

Regardless of what the significance of the numbers means, I’ve got one more concept to toy with, and that’s with the Chthonian species that are totally uniquely named within their kind -> Dreadguards, Defilers, and Devourers. Going back to the theory of Harbingers/Leeches being direct spawn of the void, I think these creatures had their genesis due to the void’s presence, but did not come from the void itself. That is to say, their species began in the presence of the void, but the void did not create them. I think there is more evidence backing this up.

I read three things from this, besides the obvious:

  • Shar’zul is actually some ultra-badass that we’ve slain a bunch of times for loot, as to be expected.
  • Dreadguards are capable of independent thought rather than being mindlessly controlled by Ch’thon.
  • Shar’zul, and perhaps every Dreadguard, considers Ch’thon a ‘master’ but not necessarily a progenitor. If the void did not directly birth them but did allow for them to be birthed at all, this sort of respect for Ch’thon/the void is understandable.

There’s this to say about Chthonian Devourers:

It seems as though the Devourer is a failure of biological genesis. It does not seem likely that the void itself failed to make something, as Ch’thon - being a god - has almost never demonstrated points of weakness or ineptitude in his craft. Rather, it seems that the ‘abomination’ that is a Devourer is a result of Ch’thon’s presence warping whichever plane he happens to inhabit. Not much more for me to say there, although perhaps you read something else into it. Regardless, again, Devourers do not seem to be mindless drones and - while acting on primal instinct - do seem to have some sort of free will, even if it coalesces with Ch’thon’s desires.

Finally, we see Defilers:

While the Defiler’s purpose is unknown to us, it does seem as though the void does not passively make Defilers itself. Instead, they are weaved from whatever hellacious fabric makes up the abyssal realm of the Dead God.


And that’s all I really got. I don’t really know what to read into Ryloks, as the snippet of lore we’ve gotten in Misadventure 110 is fairly vague:

For here, in the deepest reaches of depravity dwell the masters of this hellish realm.

Known only as Ryloks, these terrifying brutes wield the powers of the void as if it were a plaything. They thrive upon darkness and flame, upon misery and death. They are the overlords of this black realm […]

Yet even among the Ryloks, a sort of hierarchy has naturally formed. Most have become crippled by vicious competitions for power, their back limbs torn off in symbolism of defeat to their greaters. They now exist only to serve those Ryloks that proved to be the victors in these brutal displays and it is the triumphant terrors that you must be certain to avoid should you find yourself traversing the Void’s Edge.

My guess is that they are also not direct creations of Ch’thon, but they seem too powerful not to be. Before I had the above theories, I was considering Ryloks to essentially be the ‘lieutenants’ of Ch’thon (as, in the Shar’zul excerpt above, Ch’thon’s legions are described as ‘infinite’, so he could have as many lieutenants as he wants). This may still be the case, though for it to be true even still, it seems likely that Ryloks would have had to have known and served Ch’thon from before the creation of the void, which presumably happened around the time of Ch’thon’s betrayal and ‘death’. Ryloks seem to have independent thought, as demonstrated by their own hierarchy. We may well need to see their names to know for sure…assuming I’m correct, above, of course.

Well, eh, thoughts?

Can’t wait for the 'Jharr brothers. There’s:

Benn’Jharr, The Colossal
Walt’Jharr, The Tall
Mike’Jharr, The Medium
Rob’Jharr, The Small

But on a serious note, it would be cool if there was a new Cthonic Nemeses in the expansion and he also had 'Jharr.

Certainly isn’t apophenia, as one of my earlier (mid 2013!) posts on this forum was about it. :wink:

That said, I had never delved into as much depth as you have with your “five fingers” theory, which is actually very interesting and quite plausible imo. I always loved the idea of the Aetherials and Chthonians having a deeper, more-human-than-you-first-realise society, with social hierarchies and such.

On a side note, one of the most exciting things about the expansion for me is that Crate seems to be getting more confident in their own storytelling now that they’ve seen the popularity of GD’s lore. With the introduction of the Aetherial Vanguard, I expect we will start to see a clear trend of who we fight and how they rank on the chain of command. For example, post-battle with the Amalgamation, there is a note signed “Theodin Marcell, Shaper of Flesh”, and when Port Valbury was added most recently, Marcell was again mentioned in a note post-battle with Aldritch, along with a location (Malmouth). This of course could just be seen as Crate building us up for a major boss fight with the so-called Shaper of Flesh (with a title like that, clearly a power player within the Aetherials’ ranks), but the fact he was mentioned first in Act 3 and again in added content later down the line, says to me that Crate acknowledges that some members of its fanbase are hardcore lore enthusiasts, and reward us with continuity like repeat mentions of Marcell before we fight him. Not everyone will notice that he was mentioned prior to fighting him, but those of us that do love the fact that he is.

Back on topic however, I do hope with this confidence in their own storytelling, Crate will continue to throw us lore fiends a bone with things like hierarchy within Aetherial & Chthonian society (especially in the deep way you picture the Chthonian named hero-hierarchy, Ceno), sub-sects within large factions with their own motivations (i.e. the fanatic group of Arkovians led by Rolderathis - now the Undead within the Sunken Reliquary - that were shown to belong to some kind of cult of Ishtak before we had any lore on the Arkovian deities), and plot twists like Kymon’s Chosen being unwitting pawns of Korvaak (who I’m still waiting for more lore on, Crate!), which players who skip through the dialogue may not care about, but lore nuts go crazy over. :stuck_out_tongue:

I am wondering what direction the expansion will take us in terms of story. At the end of the main story Ulgrim was presumably sucked into the void before you defeat the Loghorrean. Then you talk to Creed about it. To me it seems there is more to this which will likely play out in the expansion.

One of the things Ulgrim did before you met him was, at the late emperors command, to find his son and hide him before helping him reclaim the throne. Ulgrim is the only person who knows where the Emperor’s son is hidden and now the Chthonian’s have him. In a lot of other similar material about blood sacrifices, royal blood or kings blood regularly has more potency for rituals. Is it likely that the Chthonian’s will go after the emperors son to call forth something even more powerful from the void?

This is pretty much the plot of the first Diablo. Prince is taken by forces of Hell, becomes vessel for end boss :stuck_out_tongue:

Worked then, could just as reliably work now. :stuck_out_tongue:

On a new topic, I want to get everyone’s ideas on who Korvaak is and what he represents. All we know is that he is a Primordial Being (ancient) and has an eternal rivalry with Ch’thon - so he’s old enough to have known the father of all physical life, making him one of the first gods. By the time of Grim Dawn, his name has fallen out of use and we refer to him as “the Forgotten God” - god of what is anyone’s guess so far. I have a theory of my own that I’ve been doing some fan writing based on, which would make Korvaak a central component of the story moving forward, but I’d like to hear others’ ideas and whether they think his role in the Kymon storyline will lead to anything major in the main storyline.

It’s not without plausibility, though there are some points to counter the idea of “royal blood” in Grim Dawn, at least as far as Ch’thon is concerned.

[ul]
[li]It seems as though Chthonians generally require quantity rather than quality to be summoned. I believe it takes five sacrifices to bring forth a Harbinger, if I’m not mistaken. [/li]
[li]All blood is allegedly directly from Ch’thon himself, and his servants are “returning” it to him. This would suggest that most every living creature has the same blood “type” (pun not intended).[/li]
[/ul]Despite these, I would hope that the prince does get involved in the plot somehow, as that would give us an interesting Male/Female mirroring between the prince with the Chthonians and the daughter kidnapped by Aldrich with the Aetherials.

Perhaps Korvaak represents some sort of spiritual means of life? That’s my take on it, at least. Everything about him that we’ve seen so far seems to be anti-physical, and Kymon’s Chosen doesn’t get bonus reputation for killing Aetherials, suggesting that perhaps the Aetherials are Korvaak’s creation or at the very least one of Korvaak’s connections. Such a thing would only further the rivalry between he and Ch’thon.

Good points. The theory I’ve been working on has Korvaak as the god of change and evolution, i.e. everything that has happened ever, from Ch’thon’s betrayal (and the subsequent creation of man) to the Grim Dawn has been orchestrated by him. It would explain his bad blood with Ch’thon and his offer of salvation (at a price) reluctantly agreed to by Kymon. Perhaps Korvaak, the architect of fate, planned all of this with the end goal being that he would step out of the shadows - Forgotten God no more - and inherit a shattered humanity that would answer to him and no other god after he “saved” them from the events he conceived. That’s my theory anyway: the aetherials and Chthonians are as bad as each other, but Korvaak is the big bad behind it all. :wink:

I have a small theory that Korvaak is some Eldritch god. One who got scattered to the far reaches of creation. Due the results in the war of the gods. And because of that Dreeg, Bysmiel and Solael was able to ascend to gods in the Eldritch realm.

Also the theory about a connection between Korvaak and the Aetherials can make sense. After all a Aetherial is as strong as their host. If they can’t take over a strong host, they might try a way into tricking them. Or maybe Korvaak is allready possessed, but from a other world/reality and having trouble getting to Cairn.

Something i forgot to mention from the Grim Misadventure #122: Devoted Arkovia

Attak Seru, the Mirage
”Attak Seru was the matron of spellweaving, the protector of those daring enough to wield magic. All Arkovian rituals had the symbol of Attak Seru inscribed within the runic circle for precaution; but not even her wards were enough to stave off the effects of the necromancer’s curse.”

Attak Seru grants you the power known as Arcane Current. This clever rune appears on the ground near your foes and rapidly launches streams of arcane energy that damage enemies in a line

Notice the skill description: Carve an eldritch symbol into the ground that rapidly emits currents of arcane energy at nearby foes.

So apparently a deity besides the witch gods that let you use eldritch powers.

It certainly is written as “eldritch”, but in a sense that it is “strange / eerie”, is not it different from Witch God’s “Eldritch”?

Because the effect of that skill is Aether and Elemental Damage, it is not a characteristic of the Occultist. And the mark on the ground does not feel Eldritch. If so, it would be better not to use “eldritch” in the description of this skill.

Well it certainly is a bit confusing since we have eldritch creatures, gods, powers and realms.


Mark of the false gods

Does this item mean anything? Cthon and Dreeg are false gods?

Worshippers of Ch’thon call the other gods “false gods”. Because they stole his blood to give life to their creations.

Oh-uh thanks a lot. You support a false god then :wink: