Same goes to you. Most people on our Discord server don’t care about balance. They could care less if there was a build 10x more powerful than every other build (in fact, they would love that). But they DO care about stability of their target builds which takes forever to assemble. They DO care about efficient deathless farming given how little play time they have. These are the majority of Crate’s paying customers, unlike the small group of veterans/builders/praetorians. What do you think would happen if Crate couldn’t sell enough copies of their next expansion and loyalty pack? Sometimes it’s important to look at the bigger picture. I am yet to see a game which lost its great standing because of broken balance, but there are many examples of incorrect dev actions leading to dead or abandoned games.
Same goes for me? Why don’t you try comprehending my posts before you pull the “RIGHT BACK AT YOU” internet cliche. I am not even advocating a view to have this thrown back at me. I am explaining a position and a process, not my own view of what should be.
Re-read my posts. I am not taking a stance, I am dismantling a subjective stance I see around here that parades itself as objective or reasoned above all others. I even said I don’t personally care where Zantai sets the line.
I have played GD with strangers and asked them questions since the very beginning. I’ve played with bad players who have trouble finding items they just picked up in their inventories. I’ve played with crucible runners. I’ve played with SR runners. I’ve played with people in all difficulties. I’ve played with people who just like running the campaign and challenge dungeons. I’ve played with people who don’t want to trade at all. I’ve played with players happy to receive free stuff. I’ve played with just about every type of player there is excluding those that only play with friends or don’t play multiplayer at all haha. And I have tried to practice empathy for all the ways people enjoy the game.
“What do you think would happen if Crate couldn’t sell enough copies of their next expansion and loyalty pack?” They’re not making another expansion and if they make another loyalty pack and it doesn’t do well they’d be fine because they already sold more copies of the previous editions of the game than expected and loyalty packs are highly time investment vs. return friendly.
If you want efficient deathless farming just do SR 75 in elite. It can be more time efficient than doing the same in ultimate and way more builds can do it. I’ve tested this. Even farming normal SR75-76 is relatively efficient.
If you don’t believe me at this point I don’t know what to tell you. If you want Zantai to just let God-tier stuff be and stop caring… try to make the case to him to do so from different angles? I really don’t care the outcome. Like I said I am just tired of the bullshitting masquerade of arguing that really just boils down to “I want what I want!”
I am not criticizing “I want what I want” I am criticizing pretending there’s more to it than that.
Oh but it’s Diablo 3. It wasn’t just broken balance it was quite a lot of things that made that once great franchise lose a lot of its player base.
Maybe it is because you are also ignoring the points I am making and making assumptions like this. Like we are arguing for the “personal benefit”. Like we profit from those broken builds or something. But we don’t. We are not Twitch streamers hungry for clicks neither we have some kind of “builders patreons” and get money from posting “COOL BUILDS”. It’s just a hobby for us and we are passionate about our hobby. That is all. I don’t do that to get “internet famous”. In fact, it’s impossible in a niche and tight community for a small single player game like Grim Dawn.
I don’t see a single argument I ignored or haven’t addressed ad nauseam before. This is you right now:
“I don’t get any personal benefit from this.”
“It’s our hobby and we’re passionate about it.”
Your second statement is the benefit. Fun and enjoyment is a benefit. You enjoy the game YOUR way. You thus want to have it YOUR way. I am fine with that. I am NOT criticizing that. That is the statement I wish you guys would STICK to because it’s the most honest one.
You feel that the way Z nerfs things takes away from YOUR enjoyment. Yup, that’s understandable. Regardless of whether or not I feel the same way, ANYONE can understand that. Then a lot of bullshit comes in as to why it’s objectively wrong for Z to do this. Literally all balance tweaks at this point in development is just charity Z does in mostly his freetime off-work-hours for this dwindling community he cares about. I’ve reiterated this a bunch of times too but it also gets ignored.
Welp, at this point at least you and I should have mutual understanding.
That’s exactly my point. D3 had a lot of broken builds and kept being a great game (5k hours invested! lol) until devs started micro-managing the game and holding players hands. Suddenly out of my 200+ blizz buddies 90% just quit within a couple months. I had the exact same debate with their devs back when things only started getting ugly. They were just as narrow minded and focused on some vision of perfect balance. Guess what happened. I really don’t want GD to follow suit.
I was about to just stay silent and eat popcorn cause even though I advocate for a harder game I benefit from the game going both ways. Game becomes easier and there are more buffs - I get to be more creative with builds. Game becomes harder and more nerfs - I get to enjoy the difficulty (as long as its reasonable).
What I wanna say is that everyone here does argue for personal benefit. You might not be thinking of it but everything you say is based on personal preference. You might genuinely think what you’re suggesting is for the betterment of the game but ultimately it all roots from personal experience and whatever change will result in a change in that experience which will lead to another set of feedback based on that experience. The argument “there’s a lot of other people who want this and that” does also stem from the collective personal opinions of people. Whatever Zantai does with the game, while also caring for what the game will become, will also ultimately be based on personal (or in this case, company) benefits. It’s not just about becoming famous or something. It’s more than just that. Personal enjoyment of the game, QoL. Anything that makes you like the game more is beneficial to you personally.
There are many people who felt D3 was never a great game. There are many people who felt D3 was a great game after the micro management. There were many people who held your view. I’m sure the statistic would show that of course those aren’t even distributions, but even then Blizzard was just trying to figure out how to appeal to the greatest mass of consumers. (And I’d argue most of the consumers never thought very deeply about ANY of it)
I don’t think Crate has the same view. I think they had more or less a kind of game they wanted to make and hoped it’d find its natural audience, and as the scope grew they compromised with the audience that came in. GD has been out for years and years. Games aren’t meant to be eternal and there is no subscription model here so Crate doesn’t even fiscally benefit much from digging deeper and deeper into expanding GD1.
Another thing people don’t realize is that they just get tired of playing the same thing over and over and then assume it’s because of changes but really it’s more like they just got tired of the game, and getting power creep made it feel faster and thus a little new and that excited them for a time, but it never lasts forever…
That being said Aikimox, balance tweaks coming out too quickly is food for thought. That’s the best argument I’ve seen in this whole damn discussion for justifying the frustration as anything more than subjective and emotional.
@x1x1x1x2 Just read your post, your understanding is just one reason why you’re one of my favorite builders.
Guys, I just want to disspell your assumptions: I stopped trully enjoying the game at some point in Ashes of Malmouth. Out of 10 legitimate fully decked characters I have I have only completed Forgotten Gods with one and I honestly did not enjoy this expansion as much as I did enjoy Malmouth. At this point game is a lot of frustration with rare spurts of enjoyment when I complete another creative and solid build. But it’s just me and it’s just an example of not everybody thinks about the game in terms that you would assume he would think in.
The issue here, is that Zantai’s approach to insta-tune the game based on the builders input might be hurting the company in the long run. You don’t see it right away. First, most creative players who inspire 80% of the builders, get discouraged and leave. Next, the builders slowly lose their inspiration and stop producing interesting builds. Lastly, there’s not enough passion in the community to spark enough interest for casual players to buy this game. End of story.
I’ve seen this and similar cycles too many times in the past 20+ years of gaming. Sorry, I can’t just stay silent here, because I know well where the rabbit hole goes. And yes, you are right, it’s a personal interest. My personal interest is very clear. I don’t want to lose my player base. I don’t want to play a dead game, sterilized to the point when nothing really outstanding can be possible anymore. This system is killing the artists and by extension the art itself…
Then you’re arguing for a game you don’t even like any more. That makes your position look weaker not stronger. You’re arguing passionately about something you don’t even enjoy like you used to and we’re supposed to just trust that once you get what you want, powercreep, that you’ll love it again?
Otherwise you’re arguing for changes that you hope will make you enjoy the game more. Either way it’s for a personal view. It’s for justifying what you want for the game. Maybe for you the personal benefit is just seeing implemented what you personally deem “correct” from your own view point. You keep getting so specific you ignore my broader point. That this shit is subjective and mostly impacts a tiny minority of extreme players.
@Aikimox I would argue the most creative players got discouraged and left because they made creative builds that weren’t designed for speedruns… And you’re also assuming that the balance changes are the killer of the community… meanwhile there’s a bigger killer: TIME. Over time these communities diminish. And Zantai is not going to JUST do buffs and powercreep the game in order to hold onto a community of players which does not fiscally benefit the company in any way.
“Nothing really outstanding anymore” ? A while ago 8 minutes was outstanding. Your problem is that you can’t see that every time you want new outstanding things, the bar for outstanding is raised and a bigger bulk of builds is what’s left in the dust.
Don’t you realize that we’re not too far off from seeing balance patches slow down and shrink and stabilize? I don’t think we can count on seeing huge balance patches once they’ve moved on to focusing on their future projects…
We can say about the good of community all we want, but it all boil down to our own enjoyment.
For me, I don’t enjoy this kind of situation. If I am as passionate as madlee or aikimox, I will try to express my view as hard as I want to make ppl realize that this kind of condition is not the best for me and others that feel the same.
Guess what, I have tried just that. And what did I get in return? Spurned by the devs and other so called praetorians. Madlee have experienced this kind of things all the time in the past and I surprised He can still take it like a champ. Even john_smith has rage quit.
Sorry preats, black on white, your motto of “striving for perfect balance” is nonsense. 99% builds that suffer serious nerfs are DPS crucible builds, and this is only based on results by top speedrunners in the community with no regard for the average player.
In the meantime nothing is done about things like SR set that makes stronger builds than sets supporting given skills and masteries, or Justice set that is on more than half fire builds posted regardless of Forcewave or Judgment. Squishy crucible builds are nerfed to underachieve with results comparable to the selected tankiest SR builds. Where TF is balance in that? Why would a beginner ever choose to play a caster when in “the perfect balance vision” all builds do 6 minutes, and preats’ faves also never die and require no skill?
“There are no dead builds” is another nonsense. If after a hotfix a build’s consistency falls from 80% to 20% percent then it’s dead. If it requires a complete refit in new gear and new components then it’s dead. For GDStashers it’s not a big deal. But for average legit players refitting in new components may take 20 hours of farming (1-2 weeks). And in new items - God knows how long especially when they can’t farm endgame all of a sudden as the only endgame build they’ve worked on for months is dead.
So average joes shrug and uninstall. Top players rage quit. Groups lock themselves out in secret discord channels. Health of the game, you say?
Man, you should’ve just quit or maybe take a break and come back if you feel like you miss the game. There’s no point playing a game you don’t find fun. At this point I feel like you’re treating it as you most hated subject at school.
You don’t know that really. In fact no one, even Zantai does. What’s confirmed tho is that the game has already sold way more than what’s profitable, thus the losses if ever the game dies isn’t as significant as it normally is.
Do you even read my posts? Balance changes aren’t bad, INSTANT-Tuning is. Big difference.
Played PoE much? Look at their community. They get OP builds every season and some stay around for many many months. People love that. First question from a new or returning user on PoE/D2/D3/GD forums = “What’s the most bla blah build right now?”
This keeps the wheels spinning. But the new balance crusade is simply unnecessary. And it doesn’t even work. You tell us that our unique builds are bad and nerf them, - we will keep those secret from now on. This way, the game can stay really broken for a long time and you won’t even know about it.
Spurned? Give me a fucking break. Click my ID and check my open topics. The vast majority are attempts at making unused items buffed and more interesting. I haven’t spurned the “please buff” community at all. I haven’t even spurned what you want, I said you’re totally entitled to feel how you feel and like what you like. I have never had issue with you btw. Because you’ve always been honest that you want what you want just because that’s how you like it. My stirring up trouble in this thread was just to dismantle the pretentiousness around what is objectively right or wrong for the balance of the game. You’re fine dude, and I’m sorry the nerfs hurt your enjoyment but the performance of Pyran is just much higher than Z intended 
Average joe does not shrug and uninstall. Average joe does not visit the forum. But you have no clue and just keep parading around this invisible mass of players you tell yourself is on your side to justify your little subjective view.
You also make a lot of assumptions about what the praets say think and do. You’re plainly obnoxious in the way you treat us like a monolith. The praets disagree about a lot of things. The praets are hardly as active as they used to be. Most of the balance stuff comes from what you can see publicly on the forum and what Z observes.
But man, when all the rudest and most elitist people disappear the game is bad? I dunno it is sounding like a better and better direction to me 
To address some of your specifics: Oh believe me I’ve complained about the SR set. Also we’ve never claimed to aim for perfect balance. You pull ideas out your ass and then try to smear us with them. There are no dead builds if you take campaign into consideration. If some nerfs make something start dying too much in crucible 150-170 it’s not the end of the world… I bet they still beat 150. None of us are trying for perfect balance.
It’s hilarious, you think I’m some sort of goblin that tries to put all your builds in my bag and get them destroyed. I literally just go, “huh that crucible time looks too low.” Points Z to it. Moves on.
This. Can’t agree more. This is exactly what I’m seeing both here and in closed Discord channels.
Your second attempt to turn my previous words on me is still juvenile. I did read your posts. You clearly misunderstood me because I had ALREADY AGREED with you that the quick succession of balance changes might be something to consider and frustrating by nature.
What I meant with “And you’re also assuming that the balance changes are the killer of the community” is that I doubt the quick balance changes are the biggest contributor. The biggest contributor to community downturn is simply time and loss of interest. This seems to be the case across like, every game… ever. If you’re trying to gauge the loss of a player-base purely by the communities you are already missing the majority since it’s proven that the majority of consumers don’t touch the online communities…
You can totally argue that something about the nerfs or way they’re implemented is a big factor in the loss of hardcore players though… just be aware that’s a much smaller fraction of players…
As for PoE, they have nice charts about community downturn. The reason their community doesn’t diminish is more because they release huge expansions and try to make an addictive model. Their very own lead creator does videos on their design philosophy and attempt to keep the game alive. But since GD doesn’t have micro-transactions it’s sort of a different beast.
“You tell us that our unique builds are bad and nerf them, - we will keep those secret from now on. This way, the game can stay really broken for a long time and you won’t even know about it.” That’s fine, you act as if any sleep will be lost over it. All you’ll achieve is not helping GD to become the game the developers intended it to be. If you get some sort of weird immense joy out of that, good for you? I’m not even being sarcastic here… just please stop pretending to yourself that we’re as emotionally invested in nerfing god tier stuff as you are in keeping them…
What part of “Developer has intention for state of game” -> “Playtesters assist the developer” is lost on you?
I’m also super fatigued by being treated like I’m some sort of nerf craving demon. If you checked my forum history at all you’d quickly learn that I am one of the biggest pushers for community involvement to get underused items buffed which creates INTEREST AND APPEAL for end-game players by making previously bad things suddenly good and interesting. I have huge organized item threads attempting to get under-used items buffed.
edit
Video of Chris Wilson, PoE lead talking about making the game to be played forever: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmuy9fyNUjY
And he has other videos. It’s worth a watch and is just generally interesting for anyone interested in PoE’s development model.
Also worth noting that their development team is like 120+ people.
And how much sleep is lost if GD doesn’t become the game the devs intended it to be?? So, this is your unbiased stance without stance? Striving to help GD become the game intended by its developers?
Anyhow, I better go play our secret OP sub 5min crusi builds before they get nerfed lol.
You guys have fun, I’ll just watch with popcorn from now on. I hope @Zantai watches this thread. I did my best to express my concerns.
I didn’t imply you’d lose any sleep over it. I was simply outlining the result and how silly it all sounds. I consider myself as unbiased as I can try to be toward GD because I don’t even advocate for the way I’d like GD to be, it’d be too hard to be appealing for the average player so yes?
I also never claimed to be unbiased. I claimed that my original interaction in this thread was to dismantle a stance, not to provide a superior one, and I have successfully done that.
My statement was simply to highlight that you are the antagonistic one… not the developer. None of us are out to get you. I just try to function as a playtester looking to compromise between community and developer.
I think adopting a position as a cog in the machine, attempting to simply achieve certain things based on the parameters given to you is more unbiased than trying to get the game designed to your personal tastes, yes.
Also I was even so kind as to make a mod for people who hate the nerfs: 
Like x1 said we are all advocating, what we think it’s best, but is this really the best? There’s thin line between discussion and fight, just like there’s thin line between strong build and overpowered.
If build is little faster than some artificial “golden” standard , who cares? But if build is overachieving the expectations or a tank is quicker than glass canon, you need to correct it. Like Octavius Warlord was OP in early FG days on top of being unkillable. That’s just one easy example. In reality things are more complex.
What I find hilarious is people who so fiercely propaganding for balanced game have very often unbalanced opinion. Hate to see war based on personal opinions.