Stop with the constant nerfs

Grim Dawn Gameplay Discussion
63

Because you’re the only ones posting builds since you’ve bullied everyone else off the forums.

You mean other than the SR set being gutted (which many people in this thread bitched about at the time), right?

Edit: Funny story about this one, I actually just recently (a few days ago) went to use the SR amulet on an off-build and then remembered all of the set’s nerfs, notably the loss of +1 All on the amulet. Made me rather irate and I almost made a thread here, but decided against it because I figured I’d be hit with “shit would be OP, you nub” from a not-small portion of the players presently in this thread.

As a moderator to a server of 12,000 people, I don’t see this happening anywhere except your little corner of the universe. The ‘average joes’ that care to communicate have only grown in size with recent patches, and even these 12,000 are a vast vocal minority to the game’s overall playerbase.

You mean like how everyone left the current season (Legion) because if you weren’t playing Cyclone you felt really weak? (In conjunction with other issues with Legion league)

Yeah I don’t think people like that.

At the end of the day, @jawa already nailed the game’s situation.

The release of FG and an additional mastery (which means more mastery combinations) forced us into another state of upheaval. The dust is still settling and the release of four new sets so soon to FG’s release didn’t exactly expedite that process. The buffs and nerfs will slow, especially at the high end of things; as we’ve seen, the upcoming 1.1.5.0 patch is primarily concerned with the state of Epics (as far as balance is concerned, because it’s also the Riggs/Roguelike patch). From that one could infer that things are weening back a bit and, indeed, GD may be approaching a “stable” state once more.

It took AoM a very long time to ever reach stability, and the Praets that were around then are not at fault for that because y’all didn’t exactly sort things out overnight either. 2 or 200 testers are too few to scrounge every corner of the game’s build diversity, especially when “balance” is a secondary role for testers to begin with.

I’d say FG is doing pretty well in the diversity department post-release, all things considered.

3 Likes
64

But I have a certain personal gain from posting 5 minute builds how could I not bully everyone off the forums.

2 Likes
65

Personal preferences aside (I’d like the standard for top Crucible builds to be 10 minutes), this whole notion of people quitting the game because of balancing done to endgame builds is just utter nonsense. Last time I checked, less than 10% of GD players finish Ultimate. Those people will never be affected by the nerfs you are decrying here. Nor will those people quit the game because they are following the forums and then they see that their desired build got nerfed, so they won’t bother with farming for it. Who has time for that shit?

You have to realize, people who post frequently on this forum (myself included) are abnormal, primarily in the sense of the amount of time they devote to the game. The vast majority of GD playerbase are actually people with very limited time, who play the game through Normal with one or two characters.

The playerbase is shrinking simply because the game released 3 years ago, that’s all.

1 Like
66

:rofl: That’s so funny. Where are signatures with quotes when you really need them!

67

Glad you replied (I almost dropped my popcorn, lol). You are pointing to the other extreme here. Yes, too much OP is bad for competitive modes like leagues, seasons, ladders. But we are talking about a single player (mostly, until you guys actually fix all the MP bugs and glitches) game, where OPness is less of a concern. You, on the other hand, are pushing the opposite extreme here. Do you really think that re-balancing classes, gear, skills, devotions, components, every month or two months is healthy for the majority of the players? Or let’s rephrase, how much does this re-balancing Really help the majority?

Funny thing you said that, but this forum is really not a good representation of the main player base. Like I mentioned earlier, the vast majority of my online GD buddies aren’t even registered here. They do browse the boards when choosing a build and greatly appreciate the work of top builders like Mad_Lee, but you won’t hear them talk here. And the vibe I’m sensing is very disheartening. They are unhappy with the frequency of balance changes. They are very happy to play with new sets, classes, etc. though. So why can’t devs just focus on that more than the constant witch hunting and normalizing of outstanding builds? Is there really a huge issue with that? Would leaving Deathmark or Cyclone alone be REALLY breaking the game?? Can you explain that?

Thanks,
Aiki

2 Likes
68

If you count the nerfs vs. buffs… you would see they ARE heavily focusing on buffs over nerfs… the nerfs are just felt to a disproportionate emotional extreme because buffs are under-appreciated and nerfs are over-hated. Because nobody likes to lose power and everyone likes to gain power. This has nothing to do with good game design.

Seriously though, the point about frequency of balance changes, that’s something to think about! I think it’s a very strong point. For Grim Dawn 2 I think it’ll be something I encourage for consideration at least.

3 Likes
69

I don’t quite know what it is you think I’m pushing for.

No, I don’t.

A good deal, or at least it used to. You haven’t said it, but I think you’re hinting at the old adage of “why does a single-player game need to see nerfs?” You kinda brought this up when you brought up other games, too, like Baldur’s Gate (see you in BG3? :smiley:)

Balancing, to some extent, is important in such games because of the game’s outward appearance to prospective buyers. If we’re not having this current conversation and instead we’re complaining about how everyone in the game is playing one viable build (Pyran :rofl:), new players that see that conversation won’t be interested in the game because they’ll think there’s only one right way to play and there’s no room for them to get creative. That you, and builders like you, can so creatively upend the game’s balance again and again, patch after patch, is a fantastic thing. But it’s a two-way struggle, and if one end buckles (Crate stops balancing or you guys stop breaking things), the game’s outward appearance stagnates.

This will happen eventually, because Crate made GD as a product that will eventually stop receiving patches. Contrary to PoE, GD is not a “game as a service,” and thus the profits Crate will see from GD will naturally decline to a point that attracting new players via balance updates alone won’t be that viable.

Definitely not. Indeed, we are a vocal minority.

Bruh the majority of my real-life friends that play GD aren’t here or on the main discord at all. Preaching to the choir.

See above.

70

Glad to hear that.

As per above, it’s these frequent nerfs what I’m mostly concerned about.

As for BG3, if they are going to hack and slash every month like you guys - I might just skip it, haha. There was nothing wrong with the monks being able to wear Keldorn’s plate mail? Just kidding, that was a fair nerf/fix, - #good old days of true OPness.

1 Like
72

Im noticing this alot too. Someone states on the forums something they don’t like about the new nerfs and they get ridiculed and made to look like their opinion doesn’t count. Ive spoken to hundreds of people in game who are not happy with alot of the changes crate has made in several patches since FG and many of which who have quit because they discovered their build has been nerfed and to make it work they need some insane M1’s or need to try a different spec.

If something is horribly overperforming I completely understanding adjusting it, but adjustments should be very incremental. There can be great fun in playing overpowered specs but not everyone wants to do that. Classic builds which are fun to play and kick ass are part of what makes rpg’s memorable. If you have the best gear, best components, best augments and a finely tuned build then why shouldn’t you be OP?

73

What a mess this thread is. TLDR version is this: why can’t you guys get on board with Crate’s vision of GD? Where reasonable crucible times are not less than 6 minutes and SR 75 is not a benchmark which makes a build enjoyable. Also please post or explain why your builds died? I have yet to see that.

Balance is very debatable when it comes to how enjoyable a game because that enjoyability is a relative concept. There are only consequences to whatever balance strategy is decided upon; no balance leads to god mode builds which causes some people not to even buy the game in the first place and too much balance can also turn people off and cause people to stop playing.

My view: Balance is important to prevent the perception of god mode builds like the retal warlord at release. This kind of god build should be left to modding. I think it does more harm than good to bring in new players. Crucible times have literally never been this low and everyone knows at these low times cause the danger and challenge to rapidly evaporate. The benchmarks have been shifting to unreasonable levels, SR 75+ completion is not necessary and nor is it indicative of whether a build is enjoyable. The players complaining here seem not to understand these concerns and it seems their enjoyment is too heavily dependent on achieving specific unreasonable benchmarks. This goes for the veteran theorycrafters too, I get they invested time and thought to maximise the potential but that potential is unreasonable and not good for the game. Why is it so hard for you to understand Crate’s vision for GD?

I support most balance changes and love that Crate care as much as they do! However there are solutions for everyone though. Backpatching and/or mods. Completely up to you if you refuse and stop playing, it matters not as you got your money’s worth already from GD.

2 Likes
74

Phantom claims that an unspecified nerf which causes people to quit will understandably lead to no change. Balance is a two way process so more information is needed for Crate to respond. Generally they are pretty responsive to aspects which went too far, acid dervish for example. Rune of hagarrad is being brought back etc.

1 Like
75

In another forum I frequent, sometimes contributions in threads are marked as Rants, so any reader knows what to expect.

This is one of these “Rants”.

Well, I surely don´t have any numbers but as an economist and now long time player I think Crate will have a fair RoI on Grim Dawn. They don´t need to sell even more copies now than they already have, all things now are icing on the cake.

If I were Zantai and in a special sour mood and read all this complaints, I would make/think of a few changes:

a) Search through patch notes. Search for “added” and “increased”. Reverse all these things.
b) Close the feedback section in forum. Ignore all private messages referring to feedback/proposed changes.
c) Thank the Praetorians for all their help, but tell them, they are not longer needed.
d) Skip Modding support.
e) Skip Grimtools support.
f) Don´t waste time with any QoL features. Reverse things like choosing Crucible arena, etc.
g) No more streams.
h) No more Grim Misadventures.
i) Don´t announce patches/fixes. Just do it. Don´t explain the details.

I am not Zantai. He´s the nice guy.

2 Likes
76

The last time i saw someone so butthurt over some nerfs was after a wow warrior nerf and a lot of the forum user changes there signature to the nerf. :grinning:

77

From my personal experience of the game and the exchanges I have in my gaming community, players reactions to nerf are grossly exagerated. Most of people simply don’t care because they don’t follow minmaxed builds and don’t play much endgame content or don’t notice if clearing something take one minute longer. I feel that some builders feel responsible for people following their builds and don’t get the results they were looking for. But to me it’s the worst possible way to enjoy the game, trying to stick to a build without understanding it (just my opinion ofc).
That said I’m not against some builds being OP, perfect balance doesn’t exist after all. But from a non competitive player complaints look a little childish and overreacting. Don’t feel the need to tell me it’s my vision not you because it’s everybody case in this thread :wink:

2 Likes
79

Let’s say a person wants to buy the game and asks on any forum related to this game about which builds are the best. Then the same five builds get repeated over and over but at the same time, people are claiming that the game has a lot of build diversity. How can the game have great build diversity if literally the same five, broken builds get suggested over and over? The person might find the game boring because of this and not buy.

A reminder, this is a possible customer. This is not you and your little group of friends or mad_lee and his little group of friends who already paid for the game. You are no longer a customer and Crate technically doesn’t need to care (but they clearly do or else they would have dropped the game eons ago). You are all the extreme minority, not the majority that you somehow think you are.

And Crate clearly doesn’t think leaving some broken builds around is fun, hence why they want balance. Now, you can either keep playing and accept that broken builds will get nerfed and adjust your build when it happens or quit. Because if you clearly expect Crate to suddenly just drop their mentality that broken builds should not be left around, then you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

8 Likes
80

The funny thing is that no one has yet given tangible proof of some build becoming completely utter trash with the last patches. @mad_lee should do like user_name and quit the game already if it has been making him so bitter and unhappy for such a long time. The hard truth for the min-maxers to swallow is that the vast VAST majority of people who play this game doesn’t give a rat shit about nerfs affecting their precious 4/5 minutes runs in Crucible. And no, 30 persons whining together about nerfs in an echo-camber is not a good sample of the whole playerbase, not for a long ahot. How about learning some freaking statistics before coming here to talk as if you were the absolute physical embodiment of Grim Dawn playerbase? As some of you can name 30 or 40 players getting mad about the nerfs I can name hundreds of people whom the recent “most polemic” nerfs have flown way over their heads because they just don’t care about playing the game to that absurd level of “I have to beat Crucial 151-170 in less than 6 minutes otherwise it’s a #dedbuild”. You guys are blowing an issue way out of proportion.

9 Likes
81

Your list is not complete. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

82

@Strannik
I am sorry. :confused:…what did I forget?

83

USER_NAME_01 didn’t quit, he got banned.

1 Like
84

But what if you like the balance changes till now and want to praise Zantai for listening to the community when and where needed and sometimes even when not needed, just to please the players.