[Suggestion] Rework Shadow Strike for DoT

[DeputyChuck]

Shadow strike is a bit lackluster these days as a main attack skill, and it could help fill a little-exploited playstyle niche instead.

When it’s not simply used as a mobility tool with a single point, Shadow strike is mostly used it as an Auto-attack replacer, but that doesn’t work really well. As @banana_peel once surmised in the public test section before the last patch, it simply doesn’t provide the sustain needed to be a main melee attack.
Most gear support for shadow strike will either help convert one of its 4 different damage types, or add flat (non-DoT) damage, making it basically a poor man’s blitz, without the tankiness needed to follow through.

Suggestion:
One way to make the most out of shadow strike’s sporadic nature would be to rework the approach to a DoT-focused attack, where the waiting time between SS uses don’t have to be filled by WPS hits to maintain DPS, but could be used in evasive actions, making a lot of sense thematically for a Nightblade.

This would create a different playstyle where hit-and-run is not about compensating for build flaws, but an actual strategy. This approach would inject new life into the skill, make it significantly different from blitz, and synergizing even better with blade trap, Blade spirit, blade barrier, merciless repertoire, Night’s chill, and Nightfall. This change could make it a centerpiece of a playstyle that includes mobility, CC, and evasiveness as the core gameplay, that no other masteries really encourage.

@Crab_Turtle_2112 's Soldier build is testament to how different, interesting, and fun this can be, and Shadow Strike looks like the perfect candidate.

It could also create a great identity for the Deathguard set as it seem to lack one as it is.

Possible changes to make this happen:

• Rework the cold portion of the main skill to Frostburn.
• Increase the vitality decay damage on Nightfall to meaningful value
• Rework the deathguard set and flip the bonuses around between those to bone harvest and shadow strike (crit damage to bone harvest, massive DoT to shadow strike)
• Replace Nightshade’s reach’s acid damage to “total damage modified by %”
• Replace Spectral longsword’s cold damage to frostburn
• Add flat poison damage to riftscourge slicer
• change the lightning bonus to electrocute on the conduit
• Rework an underused MI to add vitality decay to shadow strike and convert poison/cold to vitality
• Rework another underused MI to add bleeding damage
• Rework Galeslice mark to add Frostburn damage instead of Piercing.
• And in general, add more DoT damage (both flat and %) to devotions: Ex: Flat poison to Scorpion, Flat electrocute to tempest, More flat Frostburn to Leviathan, flat burn to Fiend, Phoenix, or Torch, flat Vitality decay to Gallows, Abomination, or Wendigo.

Thanks for reading.

[Foehammer]

Nicely thought out and written feedback.

[Bananow9393]

I still have no idea why SS was nerfed few patches ago.
I think DoT part could get significant buff or WD significant buff as it’s only 1 target and still inferior to multitarget blitz. (Accounting itemization)

But as you suggest the DoT buff would give it an niche feeling and gameplay value so + 1 from me.

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

feel like i have to mention something probably very important
Dot from same source doesn’t stack…
so when you have shadow strike, with a cooldown easily below even base dot duration, any subsequent hits on same target will do 0 additional dmg, with the sole exception that you miraculously crit higher/higher pth, or had a stronger debuff
this would not play out well in skeleton key dungeons or SR boss rooms, Crucible might be a different story where you can move around more and to greater benefit
and, please correct me if i’m wrong Banana/Roman, currently the fastest crucible SS build is doing it from flat cold(2x spectrals?) applied at low cooldown, and not purely from the moving around with frostburn like old lox+frostburn ?
or 1 spectral, because additional flat was good, vs 2 lox which would still be more moving+frustburn application like before

you also obviously get no leech from dot, so unsure how swapping flats and moving to dot is gonna help super much with the “AA issue”(think i missed that in test patch?),
and gonna leave you vulnerable to dmg taken still; since as we all know you can’t avoid taking dmg all the time
and you can’t really constantly move around to try avoid dmg, i’d say this goes even for SR boss room
so now you have a “gutted” lifesteal hit every 1.5-1.8seconds because most dmg got turned into dot
you now have an attack that doesn’t stack on same target and a dot that lasts for 3-5-9 seconds
and you have 0 CC because, (no idea where that came from), you can’t CC things, much less the threatening things you’d want to not have attacking you while your dots roll

also not really sure where the movement come from, unless you’re a dervish or blademaster you have 2 movement skills, 1 that needs a target, so you aren’t moving around 24/7 like that as means to avoid dmg

idono, i’m confused,
i think i get the idea at root, making shadow strike “better” without just making it into a 10mill ohko dmg monster or a warlord tank,
but i don’t see how some of these general proposed changes will do that or even help, much less for environments outside crucible, but actually make it a bit worse

as a note, Z already said we aren’t getting spam SS because it offers actual immortality avoidance, so turning it into a more pure movement obv isn’t happenign on that end
but changing existing flat to dot, i don’t see how it’s gonna help with some of the also raised issues
adding more dot or special/swapping modifiers for the struggling portions might help, but i don’t see the overall picture of SS builds actually benefitting from a lot of these proposed changes
mebe i’m blind or hazy from painkillers or just need it explained like i’m 5?

[The_Coyote]

The idea - as far as I understood - was a pure kite SS striker - you don’t stack DoT with repeated strike (only hope for higher crits and to refresh the DoT [DoT’s >>300k]), and while you wait for the next strike - you kite and try to avoid being hit while the DoT does the work for you.

Such a build would need somehow more AoE damage - as shadow strike has now a rather strong one target nuke character. Quite some sustain would to have come from other sources (health regen, pneumatic burst, avoid being hit) and in certain areas it will likely struggle a bit (SR would likely more fitting for such a gameplay than CR - as there hit can hardly be avoided)

Would be a pure hit and run character

Edit: in case you missed it, one reason for the idea is the cooldown internal trauma forcewave soldier [1.1.9.6] Solo Soldier - Easy Crate ; Calla ; SR80 - #21 by Crab_Turtle_2112

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

@The_Coyote

was a pure kite SS striker

and how would you do that in GD? where you can’t avoid taking dmg
how would you heal inbetween, how would you deal dmg in circumstances where there are multiple targets; just have the fight drag on 3x as long because you’re waiting for your single target dot/skill to be applied to other enemies
like, you can’t avoid taking dmg for 5-9 seconds, and i doubt regen would jell well with the dmg synergy, nor that it would be remotely enough

@The_Coyote

internal trauma forcewave soldier

yes i saw that, but it’s also a meme, (probably stronger as warlord too/i think Ceno had a sick one cooking too), infinitely tankier than a cold SS breaker or infil or reaper poison witch hunter etc etc, it utilizes a dmg type that is minimally resisted, and doesn’t need to get close range to even hit, + it’s innately a pure aoe, main SS dmg is single target

like… lot of key elements just totally glossed over as if would just apply this to SS nightblades+X

i for one at least don’t want/wouldn’t want my current SS toons to suddenly take 5x as long to kill things, just because i had to run around waiting for a DoT to tick… like, that’s not really fun
no offence to Crab’s kiting, but it’s obv a pretty slow build/approach, which sorta goes “against” how SS is supposed to feel fast

[The_Coyote]

The base idea behind is imho - make a one skill DoT build. That there are some hurdles (and CR will not be the most favourite area for such a build), well, yepp, but so what.

The idea would still be, SS the area / enemies - apply your DoT to them (more AoE needed) - retreat (e.g. with a disengage rune) - wait (kite) - repeat. If it can work without filler attack and the substain provided by them - well, not sure, but it would be surely (playwise) a different nuke strike attacker than blitz attackers. If everybody will like such a gameplay, surely not (I surely don’t like to wait for cooldowns) - but it would have its own unique character

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

but it already exists like that sorta
you can already do that with acid SS and dunefiend that gets the higher dot
the point just is, it’s a dps loss to do it, “standing and attacking” when it’s safe to do so offers a combined more dmg and dps
i like the SS in disengage out approach on dunefiend, i think it’s great, but i don’t want all my cold SS to do that too, i like my cold SS hitting for 1mill every 1.5 sec or whatever

but not every fight will be like Crab’s Calla fight where you have a giant arena to kite around safely and uncontested, so being able to handle dmg taken in between gets kinda crucial, just changing it into a pure kiter with “0” hit potential in between because now wet noodle dmg, will just hurt everytime you can’t kite guaranteed safely (since you wont be as tanky as Crab’s soldier)
and i think GD has too many areas where you don’t have that freedom
2 small boss room in SR for instance

[The_Coyote]

@Gnomish_Inquisition

you can already do that with acid SS and dunefiend that gets the higher dot

Imho, the current DoT’s are still not high enough - and the AoE is too low (as Nightfall is a secondary skill modifier). But yeah, I think dunefiend could be a more interesting set for such a purpose as it has already the long cooldown / high damage concept (in fact - I tested such a build but was not satisfied with it so far, but could also be badly made by me).

And yes - running around (kiting) is a dps loss. And also yes, it will have some problems in certain circumstance. But it is also a different way to play the game. So lets better think about what would make such a build possible.

And as stated above “I surely don’t like to wait for cooldowns” - so such a build is not the one I prefer to play (also: misses a shield)

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

@The_Coyote

it is also a different way to play the game. So lets better think about what would make such a build possible

that’s assuming it’s even necessary in the first place, which my whole point is that it’s not
it’s worse gameplay, it’s less fun, it’s less effective; i don’t wanna be running around doing nothing for 9 secs or more
and, obv, as such i don’t want the core skill to be changed to become that
expanding on builds that already support it i wouldn’t mind, like boosting dunefiend or altering deathguard, deathguard which already have its issues
but changing perfectly fine or great functioning builds and skill, into something fundamentally “worse”, i don’t see a point in, let alone can get behind

shadow strike is a single target high dmg skill with a target movement,
changing it to a dot by default, is not gonna improve that or change it that much
it is however gonna make it worse/“not help” for anything that doesn’t run around 5-10secs
-we already got cooldown forcewave for that

[The_Coyote]

and now we go back a start to make constructive feedback out of your comments:

• about the general gameplay for the skill: there are now too many builds using the current character, so the proposed change to the skill itself is problematic (especially in the end of development phase of the game - where nothing fundamental happens: I look at you PASSTHROUGH )
• there is however already a set which seems more suitable for such a purpose: Dunefiend
• so what could be changed so that Dunefiend SS could fill the intented roll …

Sometimes - being constructive make lives easier for everybody …

@Gnomish_Inquisition

we already got cooldown forcewave for that

Cooldown Bleed Blade Arc does not suck completely, too (and has a shield)

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

@The_Coyote

so what could be changed so that Dunefiend SS could fill the intented roll …

idono, because like i said, dunefiend already seems fine
also don’t remember hearing others complain much about it, meanwhile Deathguard got some serious dedicated testing and feedback during last patch and had almost no significant changes accepted
if we are going to buff dunefiend to be even more DoT style, it might just make the set “too strong” ? (no idea), since it’s seemingly already doing acceptable

basically the main gripes i have here is the ones suggesting changing flat to dot
adding more dot some places i’ve got no issues with
increasing or changing Nightfall i’ve also got no issue with,
but changing “all” instances of flat is not gonna help with much, imo, but adding more dot/nightfall would be nice, but might also make certain existing things a tad stronger (than maybe tolerated), - would depend on cruci runners i guess

[The_Coyote]

One way could be to add some boni to non Dervish Dunefiend (e.g. Witch Hunter) - e.g. global cold/vitality to acid conversion to Blood of Dregg - to get more out of Nightfall. Than only the pure flat damage Dunefiend using lethal assault could be an issue - but the dervish side of the set would be unaffected.

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

ye
right now one thing i dislike about Nightfall is the secondary mechanic effect that means it doesn’t get conversion “on anything” aside from global,
which means on some builds you get less dot increase “per point” from adding to Nightfall, than you do if you point Merciless Repertoire passive instead

[fordprefect]

@DeputyChuck

Rework the cold portion of the main skill to Frostburn.

No

@DeputyChuck

Increase the vitality decay damage on Nightfall to meaningful value

Yes

@DeputyChuck

Rework the deathguard set and flip the bonuses around between those to bone harvest and shadow strike (crit damage to bone harvest, massive DoT to shadow strike)

Some poison damage would be good.

@DeputyChuck

Replace Nightshade’s reach’s acid damage to “total damage modified by %”

Yes

@DeputyChuck

Replace Spectral longsword’s cold damage to frostburn

No

@DeputyChuck

Add flat poison damage to riftscourge slicer

Daggers are already strong

@DeputyChuck

change the lightning bonus to electrocute on the conduit

No, but adding extra electrocute would be great.

@DeputyChuck

Rework an underused MI to add vitality decay to shadow strike and convert poison/cold to vitality

Grundleplith and Pusquil’s tail can be candidates.

@DeputyChuck

Rework Galeslice mark to add Frostburn damage instead of Piercing.

Pierce SS already underperforming.

@DeputyChuck

Flat poison to Scorpion, Flat electrocute to tempest,

Yes.

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

one thing i forgot to touch on
since it was mentioned, and it was even mentioned briefly in the test patch
it’s the comparison to Blitz, which i think is wrong
yes they are in essence the same type of skill
but Blitz being strong af if not straight up OP, isn’t because Shadow Strike is now all of sudden bad, or “worse”
it’s a skill that’s “overbuffed” on items, a less resisted dmg type, and the flat sources are high to reduce armour impact, on a dmg type that got heavily increased since armour bypass changes, for a class(es) that are natively 10x more tanky than Shadow Strikers, and can get Maul “passive” healing
how strong and often was blitz used like this before 9.2 armour bypass changes, or the MI additions? - compare that to how long Shadow Strike has been “loved” and basically unchanged except for some dmg nerf balance tweaks here and there
X getting buffed and overly strong doesn’t mean Y is bad or need fundamental reworking, it “just” means that X needs nerfs

if i wanted to make shadow strike better, i’d lower the cooldown, to be more fun, or make it “moar” aoe
but at the same time i’m also trying to be “realistic” and i know SS probably has a fat chance in a pig’s flying frozen hell of getting further cooldown reducts without massive dmg nerfs
probably the same for making it multi target hit or high aoe like blitz, (and at the same time i also understand not wanting to make the 2 skills basically “identical” like that)

[DeputyChuck]

@Gnomish_Inquisition

i for one at least don’t want/wouldn’t want my current SS toons to suddenly take 5x as long to kill things, just because i had to run around waiting for a DoT to tick… like, that’s not really fun

I don’t know exactly how crate would balance around DoTs, but I’m certainly not suggesting to make SS weaker. There are some really fast bleeding builds, and they rely almost exclusively on DoTs.

@Gnomish_Inquisition

you can already do that with acid SS and dunefiend that gets the higher dot

I also think dunefiend is fine as is, but it’s true that it already has the “longer cooldown, stronger hit” thing going for it, however it has no meaningful extra DoT on it. Deathguard needs something though. and a part of its identity right now is massive poison DoT… on bone harvest… It just needs the right change to make everyone happy.

@Gnomish_Inquisition

i like my cold SS hitting for 1mill every 1.5 sec or whatever

We already have Blitz for that

@Gnomish_Inquisition

it’s worse gameplay, it’s less fun, it’s less effective; i don’t wanna be running around doing nothing for 9 secs or more
and, obv, as such i don’t want the core skill to be changed to become that

Well, different people like different things. This playstyle might not appeal to you, but it will appeal to some.

And I’m not proposing to change SS to make it less powerful or less usable as it can be used right now, only to make it possible to build around DoTs. Even with added DoTs, it still has a masive %WD portion and some pierce damage, so you definitely will still be able to play it that way.

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

@DeputyChuck

it has no meaningful extra DoT on it

100% extra WD and then 125% tdm, “no meaningful extra DoT”,

@DeputyChuck

We already have Blitz for that

except SS was strong first, not only after 9.2

@DeputyChuck

Well, different people like different things. This playstyle might not appeal to you, but it will appeal to some.

what you are proposing will fundamentally change existing SS, what i’m proposing is to not/keep the existing, if anything buff additional, but don’t touch the existing

@DeputyChuck

And I’m not proposing to change SS to make it less powerful or less usable as it can be used right now, only to make it possible to build around DoTs.

in effect you are, as mentioned shifting existing flats to dot will be a massive dmg and dps loss because of DoTs not stacking on same targets, so subsequent hits, due to lower CD will cause no extra dmg - and as mentioned you already can build around SS DoT, rather well even, so the change isn’t even needed to either accommodate that or make it stronger to become viable, because it already is
same reason i said i’m not against moar dot, but i’m against changing existing flats into dot, because that will hurt current SS, for an approach that is already viable ( i don’t really understand why you think it’s not - you just deal more dmg by not playing hit and run currently, but you totally can; same for Crab’s Soldier)
if you wanna kite around for 9 seconds, nothing is really preventing you from doing that - and if you want that approach buffed i’m all for it
but just because you wanna run around for 9 seconds doing nothing, i don’t think it’s good enough reason to nerf SS plays that want to hit things more frequently, i suppose i’m trying to say

[DeputyChuck]

@Gnomish_Inquisition

100% extra WD and then 125% tdm, “no meaningful extra DoT”,

Well, the set offers no Flat DoT on any of its pieces or set bonus, and doesn’t boost Merciless repertoire. So you would have to go out of your way to find flat poison damage elsewhere to multiply by those 100% and 125%. Those multipliers affect everything, not just DoTs, so it doesn’t foster a different approach.

@Gnomish_Inquisition

what you are proposing will fundamentally change existing SS, what i’m proposing is to not/keep the existing, if anything buff additional, but don’t touch the existing

@Gnomish_Inquisition

if you wanna kite around for 9 seconds, nothing is really preventing you from doing that - and if you want that approach buffed i’m all for it
but just because you wanna run around for 9 seconds doing nothing, i don’t think it’s good enough reason to nerf SS plays that want to hit things more frequently, i suppose i’m trying to say

Fair enough.
Look, I’m not as versed into this game’s mechanics as some of you are, but I’m sure crate is able to see my suggestion for what it is, and make changes that are appropriate to make what I’m describing possible, without nerfing the other way to play it.

The specific changes I mentioned were just examples… maybe some of them are really bad… I don’t know.

And if what I’m asking for will unequivocally make SS weaker, then you have nothing to fear, as surely the devs won’t gimp a skill that is already mediocre.
However, I’m sure there are ways to make the skill into a DoT powerhouse and create a different playstyle, without cramping anyone else’s style.

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

@DeputyChuck

However, I’m sure there are ways to make the skill into a DoT powerhouse and create a different playstyle, without cramping anyone else’s style.

100% agree

and kinda hoped Deathguard feedback might maybe have resulted in something “more”
for whatever reason in their wisdom we didn’t get that