The builders' unit AI needs major work

The bigger my settlement gets, the more the inefficiency of my builders becomes the limiting factor.

I was raided 5 years ago, the first major raid of 60 raiders, so I decided to build city walls. However, even though I doubled the number of builders, it just isn’t working because the process is so terribly slow. I haven’t been able to build much else the past 5 years because I tried to focus on the walls, but nevertheless they weren’t finished and now I got the second raid, where a single raider managed to somehow destroy my theater and almost half my houses became uninhabitable, right before winter.
I was saved by rebuilding it just in time, but even that was slowed by builders being stupid and picking up stacks of 1 clay they found somewhere, instead of the 150 clay that was lying in a stockyard close by.

So effectively, the bigger your settlement gets, the more you obviously need to build and upgrade, but because your builders get more inefficient as your settlement grows (due to walking times) the further development of the town slows into a crawl.

First of all, they don’t seem to calculate well how to quickly finish their task. When a builder, or group of builders, is assigned to a project, it would make sense for them to quickly figure out where the available resources are, where the builders themselves are, and how the resources can be brought to the site in as little time as possible. So to figure out where to get building materials, the builder should take the distance into account as well as the size of the stockpile, as a small stockpile could necessitate additional supply runs.
Instead, what they now seem to do is prioritize stacks of materials that are lying outside of storage, regardless of how small they are or how far away, while completely ignoring whatever storage depots might be lying nearby. It’s common to see villagers doing multiple supply runs for a single piece of wall, just because small stacks of 1 or 2 stone happened to lie somewhere on the map.

Builders also seem incapable of planning ahead. This is especially obvious if you’re building walls, because the builders will just take 3 stones and go back and forth to build a single wall section, then go back and forth again for 3 more stones to build another section, and so on. It would obviously be much more efficient if builders were capable of planning ahead to build multiple sections at once, based on how much they can carry. So if they can carry 15 stone, just bring 15 stone and build 5 sections at once.
The same applies to buildings which require multiple materials. If some small garden requires 2 gold and 2 wood, why not bring both the wood and gold at the same time? Why do separate supply runs for both materials?

Then there’s the wagon shop. I don’t see why the only people who drive wagons are the ones who build the wagons, it would make more sense for villagers of all kinds of professions to drive wagons and for wainwrights to focus solely on building them and repairing them.
That way, builders could use wagons to transport raw materials needed for big projects. It would be very easy to build walls very quickly if you just have one builder loading 60 stone in his wagon, then going past the wall building site dropping off 3 for each segment, and have a few other builders follow him and build the wall. What you would need is the builders identifying a lot of wall sections that lie close together, then have the one driving the wagon plan a route alongside all the building sites for these sections.
There are other professions who would greatly benefit as well from having wagons of course, like traders, grocers and nightsoil collectors. Their job would be so much easier if they could simply transport larger quantities of materials.
And in addition, it would be great to have dedicated transport wagons as well and the ability for the player to design the transport routes himself. So for example, you could have one wagon dedicated to a specific mining area, constantly carrying food and supplies to the temporary shelters while carrying back all the ore and raw materials. Another wagon could be dedicated to keeping the markets stocked and reduce the time villagers need to spend on shelter stocking. And so on.
Right now the wagons just take up whatever job they feel like, and a large amount of the time they are carrying around small quantities of food or raw materials or even move around empty, which defeats their entire purpose. I just followed one that first carried something like 20 food to a distant logging camp, to then return carrying nothing at all until they passed a market and decided to carry 5 meat from a market to a shelter. Then it picked up another 12 food to transport to a mining camp at the other end of the map. It hurt to see how inefficiently it was being used.

So to finish, the further you get into the game, the more resources you need to move around, and the bigger your projects will be. So it’s crucial the player can easily transport large amounts of goods around the settlement, and does not have to rely on villagers running around the settlement chaotically and spending 95% of their time on needlessly long supply runs.

5 Likes

I’ve played 112 hours so far and find the whole thing 80% frustration and irritation and 20% enjoyment and agree wholly that the further you go the least this game makes sense or functions well… at the moment ‘early access’ basically means ’ next to nothing actually works properly nor makes much sense’. I think once Steelrising comes out in a few days from now I’ll be shelving this until more bugs and deficiencies are fixed. Love it, but hate it and the lack of common sense you have described very well in the game mechanisms is really disappointing…Don’t mind being part of an experiment but there is a limit… ( am on Alpine Velley and hard difficulties so it’s my own fault I guess, but even so, much doesn’t make sense at all) I would have thought by now with all the reactions from users that some of the fundamentals must be planned for revision. Real life ‘brutal survival’ surely couldn’t be quite as badly planned as some of these algorithm routines … someone would surely take charge and try to ram some order into things…

1 Like

I stil enjoy it somewhat, but I think my enjoyment/frustration ratio is 50/50 now where it was 90/10 early game, and I’m worried it will only get worse as I progress. It feels a bit like this game was mostly tested on early game, where the inefficient unit AI algorithms don’t matter too much because the walking distances aren’t as big to have such an impact.

But ultimately, a resource gathering/city building game needs mechanisms to allow for mass transport of goods in the late game, setting up and constantly expanding a blossoming economy is more or less the objective. But this is very hard, if not impossible, due to the inadequate AI guiding villager behavior and the lack of a mechanism to allow for mass transport of goods.

As your need for quick and efficient building increases later in the game, your ability to do so actually decreases, which generates the frustration.

2 Likes

Or how about this - the builders kind of push a request to a wagoner to bring materials to the building site (like in real life). For management, the player can specify on the wagon building which types of tasks to prioritise. For example one wagon shop could prioritise supplying builders, another could be set to just transport from mines etc to storage. Another could prioritise stocking markets.

1 Like

Maybe add a third mayor class next to workers and builders, some sort of carriers.
These carriers get their resources only from Storages and are able to

  1. Carry big amount of resources to building places or distribute them among walls (where builders then only have to built).
  2. Distribute resources over your city to other storages capable to storage the goods (needing the ability to declare the maximum of one good the be stored at a certain storage.

Latter point can be implemented in the storages themself to employ carriers.
Maybe include the Wagon builders more into this section.
Builders should still be able to carry building materials, hence the carrier class is a class to employ in the late game, early on it is not needed.

2 Likes

Yeh i do agree that the Wagons system really needs some thinking - i have four stock yards (one very far out of my city for iron and gold mining). I have two iron and one gold mine with a stockyard and a foundary to try and make the smelting process a little more efficient. The wagons will happily bring me 4 meat to the nearby temp shelter but will fail to take the stacks of iron or gold ingots that have now built up and i have to rely on the villagers to run back and forth collecting a few blocks at a time.

1 Like

I think that builders should have the ability to request the delivery of goods from the wagon drivers. If a building needs x stone, x logs / planks, x gold for example, the wagon could bring all of that in one trip whilst the builders are building other buildings - then return to the building site once the items have been delivered.

1 Like

yup, i’ve been saying similar

I can’t tell you how endlessly infuriating this is. And this is just assuming that you even HAVE builders to begin with. For some reason, despite having plenty of people available, no one becomes a builder! I don’t know what to do. I’m just gonna start losing my mind at the sight of unfinished building projects, i.e. walls, and a builder count that refuses to go up.

1 Like

You can specify Builders in the Population screen, upper right. Just be sure you have a bunch of Laborers laying about to pull from.

My first thought on Wagons/Builders was that it was a mechanic to increase the pressure on us Players, making it more difficult to get done the things that need doing in the game.
Now I’m convinced it’s just Bad Design, which needs to be fixed to keep the game playable.

Several Possibilities, as people have already posted:

  1. Allow you to allocate a Wagon or 2 to specifically deliver goods for specific projects - like building walls and defenses or a new Industry away from the Town center/main storage areas.
  2. Allow the gamer to indicate on the map ‘dump sites’ for materials required for construction - or future construction. Maybe even a ‘temporary storage pit/shed/tent’ to receive such construction materials during or even before the construction period.
  3. Allow the gamer to specify ‘Work Gangs’ for a given project, so you can be certain that X number of Builders will devote their attention to your new Theater, Brewery, Wall, or Barracks instead of having the work force generated at apparent random.
  4. As many have remarked, the basic coding of Worker/Builder activity needs major work: have a capacity for each individual (maybe varies with Health and things like weather, terrain, etc) and make them attempt to carry as much as they can instead of whatever is easily available. Also code in their destination’s requirements: if Gudlump the Builder can carry 4 stone and the project requires 3 more Stone to complete, Gudlump won’t waste his time carrying 2 Stone half-way across the map only to have to return and make the trip again . . .

More serious revamp of game mechanics probably aren’t likely at this point, but I would love to see more Heirarchy amongst the population, which would both be more ‘realistic’ for a Medieval Era, and also allow the gamer more indirect control and things to overcome: have an Overseer to manage the building projects and Builder/Laborer crews, or a Master Mason to build your walls and other major buildings, a Sergeant in charge of your troops. Getting the ‘advanced specialists’ you need could be a whole other mini- or sub-game within the game . . .

1 Like

I don’t think it’s bad design so much as an early access work in progress. I think most of these issues will be solved when they add storage to storage transport functionality. That would let you load up the starting wagon with building materials and then drive it out to act as the temporary storage you suggest. Maybe they will let us upgrade the capacity and speed of that starting wagon when it becomes a useful part of play.

Builders only get split between tasks if there are more jobs than builders. You can already solve that by assigning more builders or setting fewer concurrent build tasks, or just the prioritize button.

There are already improvements in the builders AI in the upcoming v0.8.0 patch.

Oh god I hope so. Because honestly, this is a superfun game, annoyances aside. Btw, I was aware that I needed some available laborers to fill the role of builders, but despite me having plenty, trust me, no one was taking the job, as far as the population screen indicated.

Yeah, 8.0 should address that for you. Jump into the beta branch if you want to test it out, lots of significant improvements. There is a pinned post with instructions on how to join.

Oh yeah. The starting wagon could definitely be more useful.

Devs are looking into that as well.

This topic was automatically closed 90 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.