I’d wait for a few more hotfix passes before the ‘meta’ is adjusted. In the meantime can’t go wrong with 3.5 DA, 83%+ max res and 30k hp 
I’m afraid that is not the case with the current state of events. There are “walker” builds that have those stats plus you only hold down left mouse button (zero temp buffs required) while evaporating SR75-76 with zero risk of dying, massive AoE while maintaining around 10s dummy times. Zero greens required to boot.
As much as I like broken balance and weird unorthodox / unintended synergies, even I have to admit, things were a lot more balanced when retal builds were all the rage 5 years ago.
But hey, maybe that’s the grand design idea? First, devs break things on purpose to create a wave of excitement, then bring them back in line? Dunno, guess we wait and 
1 Like
FYI - if you don’t share your builds, they don’t exist. I’m talking in general not this particular description you gave. Also some outliers existing doesn’t change the big picture. If you have one, then share it so that it can get nerfed.
I don’t think I played the game then but I highly doubt it since I see constant effort and good results in buffing weaker builds / skills / masteries and the game getting more balanced throughout the years as a consequence. Also thanks to much needed willingness to nerf.
What have they broken? If you mean pets then it’s normal that things get unbalanced temporarily when fundamentals change which was the case here. But the intention is definitely to keep things balanced.
3 Likes
Yes, pet builds being one goid example. I don’t even need to share anything, just grab any decent conjurer, cabalist or ritualist, reduce it from deep SR to crucible / SR75-76 spec and it would probably fit my previous description.
But last patch didn’t really break anything as our HC community had been using those builds for years to farm endgame content in their sleep 
My personal gripe with it is that only some niche builds can do that. Why not allow reapers or spellbinders have such builds. I do have a magehunter that boasts a similar performance but it’s really hard to gear up requires several double rares, while my ritualist is still safer and super cheap.
It’s a good deal. You get to keep your busted builds, and the rest of the world doesn’t have to care about them.
8 Likes
30k hp 3.5 DA 83%+ max res builds that are also fast and also have massive aoe? Do share those, please.
During our top20 testing none of the veteran builders who participating could come up with those. Maybe we missed something?
Both are great. I would say that Korba grimtools in our top20 is still pretty good. We are currently brainstorming possible updates to it but to me it looks like “old” version might still be the best. And you can always update it when we do the update (it’s gonna involve maybe pants change and couple of components change and some skill re-distribution).
2 Likes
See, this is exactly where you got it wrong, if you think that the rest of the world is doing SR75-76 and Cruci 150-170 benchmarking. The rest of the world lives in the 1-100 leveling realm with a bit of farming after that, RARELY going into the so called endgame. So, when you are balancing the game around the artificial benchmark system (like D3 rifts except that you don’t have a real system of leaderboards, so no way to measure, aside from testing shared by a small group of builders), you are bound to miss the busted stuff. Mainly because the stuff isn’t even busted according to your own benchmarking criteria.
Meanwhile, in the world where 99% players dwell, things are indeed busted, sadly.
Care to share one of those, please? Because i simply dont believe they exist, especially after physres nerf.
Yes, there are tanky builds that cant die in SR 75 and Crucible unless you’re totally braindead, but they are pretty slow.
And there are fast builds that evaporate enemies in SR75 and Crucible and have great AoE, but they’re risky and might die if you arent careful enough.
But not both at the same time.
For “1-100 levelling realm with a bit farming after that” there are tons of levelling and beginner-friendly builds. A lot of builds from top-20 list ARE good as starter/levelling ones. For example, Ludrigan and CT druids, Blitz/Markovian Warlords, DW tricksters/saboteurs, etc. Only Aegis of Menhir builds are bad in that regard.
And it isnt that hard to transition from “levelling” build into an “endgame SR75/Crucible” farmer if your build is pretty decent.
As for 1-100 gameplay - i’ve started levelling Ludrigan Druid recently, mostly from the scratch. And i trnsitioned to Ultimate from level 40, because he’s so strong that playing on Veteran or even Elite is just a bullying. He has almost all resists capped even in Ultimate at that level, facetanks and evaporates all enemies. Because, you know, game is too easy at level 1-100 if your build is really good…
3 Likes
Since you mention your builders group, the broken builds in question are made by two of your builders, or ex builders, who at some point got fed up with the endless cycle of finding a gem just to get it smashed after sharing. Actually, they might still be active here, just not posting that kinda stuff. If they decide to share their builds, that’s up to them, not my call.
Ludrigan is ok, except that you wouldn’t even start this build if this was your first char, no blueprints no mats, no stashed gear, and you would think twice about it if this was hardcore solo-self-found. Not impossible to level and fully gear up, by any means, just not even close to being efficient at 1) quick and safe run 1-100 in SSF HC, 2) quick and safe farm endgame ludrigan build 3) highly efficient and safe farm of endgame content
Also just so you know, it’s currently being evaluated as a candidate for nerfing. So in a sense you are playing a busted OP build.
Ah looking out for the everyman, how altruistic.
We’re keenly aware vast majority of players do not even reach the endgame, but in the same vein, they don’t stack up any of this crazy gear either. Assuming they didn’t just play the game through once (a staggering majority plays this way…and that’s assuming they got past Act 1 or…even launched the game they purchased), a fraction of them might even get to Korvaak on Ultimate with a handful of legendaries or MIs that match their playstyle, not even getting into whether their skill points are distributed optimally. They will probably struggle there for a bit. Most people are not making “busted” builds.
So yes, when we are tuning endgame gear, we’re not looking too closely at whether casual player A is going to get through Ultimate difficulty or lower SR tiers. That difficulty is already tuned with assumptions that do not apply to hardcore (note: not hardcore mode) players. And sure, the natural power creep that has occurred over years of updates and two expansions had eroded that challenge over time. It’s not possible to add enticing new things to do in an ARPG and not give players some shiny new power to play with for the new challenges. We actually went back in v1.2 and tuned the campaign back up to close the growing gap.
So if your issue is that things are busted because you assembled an endgame character while doing progression content, that is hardly surprising, nor concerning.
3 Likes
Maybe if you focused your attention on the reasons the vast majority quit early, you could improve on that?
I may be biased but in my 10k hours playing with hundreds of people both hardcore and softcore, I keep seeing the same recurring problems,
-
I quit because they tell me to use skill x to level up faster, but I wanna play skill y right now and not in 5 years. But skill y is too inefficient at this point.
-
they said this was a good budget farmer build but I’ve done 40 BoC runs and never got that mace
-
Not enough stash space and I hate using 3rd party tools
There are many more complaints of similar kind, but you get the gist. Maybe if instead of reshuffling 1% content, you could help tye 99% people with some improvements?
Just my 2cents.
That is implying they “quit” and were not simply “finished”. I feel like you’re fixating on the wrong part of my response here and we’re now talking about something else entirely, but fine…
What exactly do you propose we do about that? These are literally self-inflicted issues caused by someone following someone else’s advice on the internet. We can’t force someone not to seek advice nor can we vet the quality of said advice.
I mean, not invalid perse, though I sincerely doubt the majority that never get to endgame are quitting the game because they filled up their stash. Fact is, majority doesn’t care about the endgame in the first place. They had their fun with the game, probably a good 60-100 hours, and left satisfied.
Would we retain more players into the endgame if we provided the same storage options as external tools? Probably? I could say that about an endless list of features though. Everyone out there has their own list of top issues that are dealbreakers for them.
Not to mention, it’s not like the game is a failure because more people aren’t doing the endgame loop. We’re not a live service product.
Yes…we are so notorious for ignoring the 99% and just making stuff for the 1%. It truly is a never-ending struggle as a developer where everybody ends up upset because 100% of the attention is not on what matters most to them. We know we’re not going to please everyone though, which is why we aim to please most. So far that seems to be working out.
1 Like
I think it would be better to raise unrelated issues in different threads because here in looks like desperation to win some argument.
I really doubt that the reasons you listed are the main ones. They’re too specific. I bet most quit for more general reasons like graphics / gameplay / no multiplayer & trading focus / the game simply being not for them.
Weak skill are buffed and made more usable constantly though. You should read patch notes sometimes. I think Crate is doing a good job in this regard.
Shouldn’t this complain be addressed to the author of that budget build? That they included Purple Shar’zul in it unnecessarily?
1 Like
Maybe I’m one of the only ones but I never seek the fastest lvling skills. If I’m going to make a pyran sorc, I’ll just full invest in mortars asap until I get to 94 and get the whole set from my vault at that point, but then I have at least already had the pleasure playing around the skills my endgame is based.
On shar’zul farming, there are viable alternatives till you get the mace. Which are also fun, efficient and you’ll have even more pleasure when it drops for you.
6 Likes
Could you please not derail the topic with your rumination on why John Everyman quits the game before killing Cronley? It’s just not what this thread is about.
So unless you present some actual GrimTools link of those fearsome and fearless HC destroyers, it really does look like
4 Likes
Are you trolling or what?
Ludrigan is bad as your first build? Why? Storm Totem alone is enough to carry you before you get the set. And it’s very good for HC too, it is pretty tanky with high HP regen and Wendigo Totem, and is good at kiting too.
There are TONS of builds that play with their core skill as soon as it’s possible (from level 20-40, some - even earlier. Including those top-20 builds.
DW cold saboteurs/tricksters/dervishes start with ABB, get DW skills and Savagery/Fire Strike to level up - the same setup you use in endgame.
Avenger Archon/Warders just use Savagery from the very 2-nd level with a random 2-hander (usually - Troll Bonecrusher).
Blitz/Markovian warlords level up with their setups too.
CT druid levels up with fire CT after killing Kyzogg, and with lightning - from level 30, after buying a medal from vendor.
16-20 place builds level up with their setups pretty well too.
Yes, those might be not the most optimal levelling setups, but they DO work pretty well.
1 Like
that issue is because you have some people telling them to use X skill in the first place
these days basically any skill is both viable and can level fast
*it’s indeed a personal gripe of mine when i see that/people push ex Forcewave levelling on soldiers, because i think it’s the most boring skill to level, so there might be others that could feel that too
having levelled, and still do level, about every dumb skill/meme, it is indeed possible to level as about almost anything
then we’re already at endgame state and talking about the 2% players and not really the 99 are we?
*fwiw singular pieces unless having crucial modifiers are rarely build defining, so missing out on sharzy mace isn’t necessarily that huge an impact from using the good replacement/budget option, even if it does lead one with the feeling of the build not being “complete”
but perhaps this is more of an issue the way again stuff is pushed; and new players simply aren’t told these things in the first place, so inform them instead
100% this. I never level with anything but my final skills unless they are not possible to use when leveling (i.e. Conduit changing skills damage). Otherwise I level with my skills using the final damage types I plan for even if it’s not optimal. Almost any build can do just fine in GD - even a classless, skill-less build can win!
1 Like
There are a few outliers that are extremly subpar when lvling,for example cadence,if you level cadence withouth the 2h axe or the 1h axes its just gonna be a nightmare compared to using forcewave or blade arc
Same with ranged attacks,trying to lvl with just your auto attack and some weapon procs from inquisitor is just masochistic early on compared to other alternatives that wipes the entire map