So, these are the ones that Imho need some nerfs to allow for more interest in the others.
True, the others could be buffed to make tham more interesting, but I feel a nerf is the easiest course of action. (it is sure to be controversial: aka “don’t touch my cheese”). I’ll look at the others more closely, …but these are the main unbalanced offenders in the Tier 1s.
Recommended changes:
Viper: reduce the last node to 1% OA, and 10 RR elemental.
It already has very strong color rewards, in addition to crazy value for 4 points.
Fiend: Remove the %WD from Flame Torrent proc.
It already has very stong color rewards, in addition to decent value for 5 points.
The proc is crazy OP currently. (It could possibly use a 1 second CD too, tbh)
Eye of the Guardian: reduce Guardian’s Gaze proc to 5% WD.
It already has good color rewards, in addition to decent value for 5 points.
The proc is too strong for tier 1.
Hawk. Reduce final node to 2% OA.
The 3% OA is much too strong for a 3 pointer, especially with + crit% and 15 OA bonus. This is essentially a “must-have” constellation.
(I am almost convinced that the second node should go from 8%–>4% crit bonus, as well).
Bat: Reduce Twin Fangs proc to 5% WD.
It already has very stong color rewards, in addition to decent value for 5 points.
The proc is too strong for tier 1.
I plan to look closer at the T2 soon, however there is definitely one that could use a tweak:
Solemn watcher. Reduce the last node to 4% DR.
It already has really good color rewards, in addition to decent value for 5 points. It is almost a must-have, as well; in fact, I’d suggest it is much more prevalent than all of the previously listed T1s.
These suggestions would make these constellations (near) worthless. Instead of heavy handed nerfs like these, try making the underused constellations more competitive.
I also agree that it’s better to buff underused constellations than nerf the standard ones now. The alternative is to introduce other accessible means of the same stats in the case of Viper/Hawk. For example, Solemn Watcher and Wolverine are some of the main sources of DA on the map so why not add in new constellations that are similar or add % DA to already existing constellations.
My intent is to make things more varied and improve the game.
My conclusion now is that once the devotions are intimately understood, there is only an illusion of many choices; the balance within similar tier and color collections is simply not there.
As I mentioned in the OP, there are two means to an end. I favor the nerf path as the easier way to balance issues, as I think the nerfs are needed for these particualar T1s.
Imho it is highly unlikely that the result woudl be a nerf to a useless state …considering most of the nerfs are to the well-known overpowered procs and not the numbers,. The exceptions are Viper and Hawk, which give almost as much %OA as tier 3, and in some cases, as much. I think they would still be picked over the rest, even with the nerfs = they are that far above most of the rest in terms of OA/DA/RR/proc value.
I am suggesting what I think will correct the 90% path that is taken for most builds that go red/yellow paths.
If others feel that the boost-the-other-constellations path is better, then I urge you to start making concrete counter-suggestions rather than complain about the process. The only thread that I’ve seen of late with concrete devotion suggestions is the pet analysis.
Feel free to use this thread for your concrete counter-suggestions. Once the dlc is out, chances are high that the window will be closed for older GD balancing suggestions.
No offense, but I hate this approach to balance. If there are some devotions that are garbage why we must make the rest garbage too? It’s better to buff the underused devotions.
Don’t know why you keep calling stuff like Flame Torrent “overpowered”, when it’s just good. Flame Torrent at the moment is not breaking the game wide open.
I and others have stated, buff the weak ones instead of making the good ones worse. My issue is that you are comparing devotions with each other instead of thinking of how good they are in actual gameplay. And some devotions right now are underpowered and that’s why hardly anyone picks them.
Nerfing them all would mean a universal nerf to all builds. The top tier builds will be fine to nerf, of course. But this will affect all the shittier builds out there, defilers, saboteurs. This decreases diversity instead of increasing it.
You could say Flame Torrent is OP in a Fire Strike Purifier, but is it really as OP in Vit FS Defiler? No for sure. Nerfing Flame torrent (AGAIN) won’t stop the stronger classes from using it while leaving the weaker ones with no options (especially since you wanna nerf bat too).
Don’t know why you keep calling stuff like Flame Torrent “overpowered”, when it’s just good. Flame Torrent at the moment is not breaking the game wide open.
Flame torrent:
-due to the proc mechanics and %wpn damage (26%). The mechanics often allows multiple procs to hit the same target = 2 counter-rotating effects. Irrc, up to 3 instances could be going at any one time. It has a higher than typical proc chance as well.
-I think it rivals T2+ easily.
Removing the %wd keeps the intent of chaos/fire elemental damage, but not the side-effect of leech and a big chunk of WD.
Bat is good vit/chaos and leech. The % WD puts it up to T2+
etc.
But as I said:
make some concrete counter-suggestions that involve the other T1s that make them viable - in terms of rivaling these powerhouses.
For Flame Torrent to hit multiple times on the same enemy requires you stand still. This means squishier builds can’t afford to stay still for very long and more tanky builds don’t have exactly have high damage to make Flame Torrent overpowered.
Bat is just decent, don’t know what’s your deal with its weapon damage. It’s pretty damn low and it’s overall damage is not very high.
You should be suggesting to make the underpowered devotions better instead of making the good ones worse. None of the devotions you mentioned are overpowered in the slightest, they are just better than the underpowered ones.
Don’t touch the current T1s. Let the new FG constellations do that job. Don’t look at this without thinking about the impact these constellations have on builds. Flame torrent and the others don’t make the OP builds OP. Hell 2 of the 3 strongest builds in my list don’t use it.
While I think some of the others are being a bit harsh I think this is an example of “the pathway to hell is paved with good intentions.” ARPG’s are extremely complex and there will always be tiers. Nerfing these would just give rise to using others constantly instead. At best you can buff some of the really bad ones and maybe they get used in niche cases and you broaden the amount of “often used one.”
I have a bunch of builds that don’t use viper, that don’t use, fiend, that don’t use eye of the guardian, that don’t use bat, that don’t use solemn watcher… ok hawk is probably the one I find on many many of my characters but even then it’s not universal.
Sure most of my characters use at least ONE of the constellations you listed, but that’s not a problem since they have such a variety in the choices they pick afterward. I’d like to see things like Harvestman’s scythe see more use via a buff than nerfing the ones you listed.
I am NOT saying it’s never time to nerf. But you nerf when something is extremely over-performing. I don’t think that’s the case there. A lot of the times these are picked also just for one singular good node on them + the affinities they offer. Not because they make or break a build.
I would say Flame Torrent is in a fairly reasonable spot right now. If you think it’s overpowered, you would have to see previously overpowered constellations like old Falcon Swoop or old Time Dilation. These fit adoomgod’s description of something that was overperforming and made builds what they were.
Pretty much what Norzan said. When I started playing, it had only got nerfed to 60% weapon damage so I don’t know/remember how bad it was at it’s peak. It’s steadily had it’s weapon damage nerfed over more updates and had it’s physical damage increased to compensate over time until what it is now.
Old Time Dilation used to do this:
Time Stop: skill has been redesigned and renamed to Time Dilation. Now triggers a Buff at 50% health that briefly grants you Energy Regen, Cast Speed, Petrify Retaliation and 100% Cooldown Reduction.
You could do things like this or this with it. Needless to say, it got redesigned again the next major update after to what it is now more or less.
Viper: reduce the last node to 1% OA, and 10 RR elemental.
It already has very strong color rewards, in addition to crazy value for 4 points.
Fiend: Remove the %WD from Flame Torrent proc.
It already has very stong color rewards, in addition to decent value for 5 points.
The proc is crazy OP currently. (It could possibly use a 1 second CD too, tbh)
Eye of the Guardian: reduce Guardian’s Gaze proc to 5% WD.
It already has good color rewards, in addition to decent value for 5 points.
The proc is too strong for tier 1.
Hawk. Reduce final node to 2% OA.
The 3% OA is much too strong for a 3 pointer, especially with + crit% and 15 OA bonus. This is essentially a “must-have” constellation.
(I am almost convinced that the second node should go from 8%–>4% crit bonus, as well).
Bat: Reduce Twin Fangs proc to 5% WD.
It already has very stong color rewards, in addition to decent value for 5 points.
The proc is too strong for tier 1.
I plan to look closer at the T2 soon, however there is definitely one that could use a tweak:
Solemn watcher. Reduce the last node to 4% DR.
It already has really good color rewards, in addition to decent value for 5 points. It is almost a must-have, as well; in fact, I’d suggest it is much more prevalent than all of the previously listed T1s.
1.Viper consist of 3 worthless nodes and one mediocre node. The change would turn it to 4 worthless nodes and remove any reason no pick this conselation.
2. Kinda agree on this. Fiend is Oupie and favor WD stacking.
3. I think i used this shit only once. For LOLz. on spinfiltrator. 5 worthless nodes and worthless proc? And you want to nerf it further? Why?
4. Do the math before suggesting. Hawk is worthless for most builds alredy.If you nerf it no one would ever pick it.
5. Kinda agree. I`d rather increase base dmg done by this proc, but remove %WD scaling completely.
6. Its not like 1% DA would make a difference anyway.
Viper is only 100% worth it on elemental builds that could use all of it’s affinity points and at the same time don’t pick Ultos. It’s a very niche constellation. I only have two builds that use it.
I only have two builds that use Fiend - fire damage 2H commando and aether full-conversion spellbinder. How it is overused?
Eye of the Guardian is overused? Are you ready to prove that? I remember only one recent build that uses it, by Ptiro. Have none myself.
Yes, Hawk is probably one of the most used constellations. It’s because it’s non-build specific. Yes, it also happens to be very good. No, I don’t want it nerfed because the access to OA on some builds triggers me a great deal. Once every build will easily have 3k OA we can discuss it again.
I don’t have any builds that use Bat. It’s a vitality constellation. Not vitality == no bat. Not overused.
High affinity requirement, 5 points, shitty resistances, yellow+blue is not something I stack on most builds. I only go for it if either very desperate for DA or very desperate for reflect reduction. Otherwise Crab is better.
All of your suggestions are based on the premise that these constellations are overused because they are OP. Which is not a trivial statement, to say the least. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
I’d seriously consider listening to all the posts here before you think about wasting your time posting your nerfs to any other devotions.
Suggest improvements to make the others more interesting, not reduce the usability of devotions that are the starter devotions. The idea is to make the game fun and not reduce everything to minimal effect and pointless to use…
Also you might want to consider providing some proof that these are so amazingly OP that they deserve to be nerfed, as from the replies in this thread you’re about the only person that thinks this way.
Not to mention you seem to have overlooked or forgotten about player perception, you start suggesting nerfs instead of improving and you instantly get disappointed players as no-one like the idea of their char being nerfed.
I ended my last post with:
“make some concrete counter-suggestions that involve the other T1s that make them viable - in terms of rivaling these powerhouses.”
So while your voice is important and it is nice to generically say “listen to the feedback”, it is not nearly as helpful as suggesting some concrete examples for improvements.
As in “I dont’ agree, but here’s a specific T1 or T2 improvement that I would suggest:…”
However, even though there has been some good feedback on why some of my points may be questionable, there were no suggested alternatives to other constellations. A bit disappointing…I suppose I might be expecting too much.
No, I don’t want it nerfed because the access to OA on some builds triggers me a great deal.
I haven’t seen a suggestion post on tweaking this, although I admit this is a pretty fundamental GD building block certain to be known by most veterans. I was planning to get around to this suggestion point some time in the future, when I was in a very diplomatic mood.
GD is fun, but has room for improvement for better replay value.
Imho, the general tendency of the community is to brood over items, as GD nears completion, I’d like to also include other aspects for ideas in its twilight design period. And further to that is a community that continues the constuctive discussion beyond the immediate defensive reactions.