Ultimate difficulty monster health scaling should get un-nerfed in multiplayer

edit it’s been brought to my attention that the title of this thread might mislead people. I should have specified: only in ultimate difficulty do I feel the monster health scaling is too easy for multiplayer.

The health scaling on monsters in multiplayer is so small it makes playing with a few friends beyond mindless. The normal scaling is pretty much fine but last time I did maths, monsters gained approximately 18% effective hp per extra player in ultimate difficulty.

Can we all come together and admit that especially after all the power creep, the movement runes coming out soon in FG, the class skill improvements… that maybe we can have normal hp monster scaling in ultimate again in the ballpark range of 50-75% more effective hp per extra player?

Multiplayer would still be wayyy faster with other people but not going from soloing Ravager in 5 minutes to killing him with 4 people in less than 30 seconds.

The rest of us haven’t tried FG yet, so let us leave that out for now.

As for your suggestion, no I don’t agree. Unless it was provided as an option for those looking for more challenge.

Why? Imagine playing with a friend to show them the ropes and stuff. But suddenly, everything is much harder. Given how not everyone rolls around with the best builds and gear, why make life unnecessarily difficult for people?

Before you argue for balance, we all know that the game is balanced around SP. So what if MP makes it easier? And if you want a challenge while playing with friends, you can always set your own limitations like facing Ravager naked.

And seriously guys, give the nerf fiesta a rest for a bit :stuck_out_tongue:

I agree with op but I have a few comments if I may…

MP has always been a crutch for the common folk (the proverbial 96% who never killed Theodin) to farm at a respectable level of efficiency. It’s easy to forget about that being a Preatorian…:wink: Some nerfs to MP, yes, but you gotta keep this in mind.

Power creep and class skill improvements? Everything’s been nerfed in 1.1… What did I miss? :eek: (except the Mines and the Temper half-buff/half-nerf - and the adcth to Ulzuin’s Wrath that I didn’t wanna mention but now that I did I feel like I should excuse myself for wasting so many words by mentioning something so inconsequential) :rolleyes:

Dude, really? 18% more hp for monsters per player. If you have 4 players you’re doing ~4 times the dmg output when monsters only have 60% more health… My suggestion would not make the game harder, it would just mean multiplayer doesn’t go at lightspeed. Also normal difficulty scaling is already fine like I said, ironically monsters have more additional extra hp in normal than in ultimate.

In normal they get ~53% more effective hp in two player, and more actually for three, four. My suggestion isn’t that multiplayer shouldn’t be significantly easier, it’s that it shouldn’t trivialize everything in the game. If everyone likes the game being like kill speeds being multiplied multiple times in multiplayer there’s little I can do.

Let’s say we had it my way and monsters got 50% more effective hp per player. Then let’s pretend each player did 100 dmg. As a group you do 400 players side stuff to a monster who’s now at 250% of the original health value. So you’d be killing 62.5% faster… except that’s not accurate because you’d also be discounting all the players’ stacking buffs and debuffs…

That’s why literally all I’m suggesting is a health increase. Also I’m speaking of power creep ranging all the way back to Ashes of Malmouth. Furthermore for the things nerfed, a bunch of other things were buffed. You realize there was a time where the very best of the best builds could only clear crucible in ~8 minutes? Now we’re closer to 5. So yes, power creep.

Now take a moment to realize that not everyone plays with the best builds and the best gear or starts out knowing everything there is to know about the game and its mechanics.

If you were to take yourself, me, Ya & maybe one more person and play a MP session together, sure we would get bored to death before our characters die. But what if you take 4 newbies in random gear and non optimized builds?

Hence why I am not against your suggestion provided it is optional. But otherwise, I stand by what I said.

Not all aurabuffs and debuffs stack. A tactician and blademaster won’t get double Field Command. Afaik two CoFs also don’t stack. Also, there can be only one flat rr and flat oa/da shred as well as health reduction.

I agree with op on the health increase. But taking into account the above as well an Maya’s and my argument about noobs, I’d keep it under 35% hp increase per player.

So, generally, yes, +1. Agreed.

^That I can get behind.

I’d be fine with a “veteran mode” for elite and ultimate that was mainly just health scaling. But I don’t think that’s going to happen.

You are incorrect about me though. I have spent my entire time playing GD outside of playtesting playing with strangers online at all levels. You don’t need optimized gear. I have played many unoptimized or even meme builds. Still have a few of my own design.

Just playing 4 people with SOMEWHAT different classes made the game easier to an extreme. The key being too extreme. I rather not be framed as some solo min maxing elitist as a means of trying to counter my view. Even as a noob I would have this view. It’s a subjective matter of how much easier multiplayer should be and little more… and the buff and debuff stacking alone does wonders for MP. That plus the fact that your enemies have 4 targets instead of one.

You should see how garbage some of my own builds are. That’s why I never post them. Instead of min-maxing I just make weird themes and try them out. I have a dogshit meteor-proc character that just tries to get as many things out of the sky on enemies as possible while being passable. It’s not a good build, but it’s fun.

I’ve leveled with strangers, made steam friends with strangers… and my experience was that normal was not much easier, elite was easier but felt fair, and ultimate was like a night and day experience compared to what it was solo.

Again, regardless of how bad the characters are: You get 4 times the amount of player output, +300% player stuff, and monsters get only ~54% more hp total… for 4 players. No other ARPG I know of in all of existence is this much easier. The standard is usually ~50% per additional player. Current scaling is little more than a third of that.

Well I won’t try to convince you further. I do understand why you have your view but I think if you experienced GD multiplayer with more health scaling in multiplayer you might find it more fun even. It’s also why I have not advocated for any additional monster dmg in multiplayer at all beyond the tiny amount they already get.

Why not? Should be possible.

You are incorrect about me though.

That wasn’t based on you, but my own experiences when starting out in GD. I was literally running around like a headless chicken (hence the name of my first build I posted in these forums) and I have played Diablo since the very first game, so I wasn’t a complete noob to arpgs.

Hell, I still don’t know of how some stuff works in GD.

I am not dismissing your opinion, I am flat out disagreeing with it. You have given your reasons for why you want the change and I have given mine for why I am against. We can agree to disagree, that is fine.

Low priority. Would require additional UI changes on the main menu and probably a tiny bit more programming. They’d ofc want to release a polished version too so probably want at least some minor testing. Easy to just let players mod difficulty instead of bothering with it. Not enough people might care. And I suppose on some level it would divide players a bit further instead of just having one version of each difficulty, even though it would be toggleable.

That’s what I could think of.

As for the rest, Ok, “dismiss” might have been harsh but I did not agree with the insinuation that I don’t have the newbs and noobs in mind. My suggestion is as simple as making ultimate’s multiplayer health scaling be the same as elite’s, not easier which it currently is. I’d also point out that most players don’t even get to or through ultimate. So ultimate is more or less for more dedicated ARPG gamers anyway. Even in multiplayer.

So yeah it’s all good Maya. We just disagree on that it would be more fun for all types of multiplayer games, and also that it would create a more consistent experience.

+1 to OP’s suggestion.

Multiplayer should be easy than singleplayer imo, but the current 18% are just a joke… 50% HP increase sounds reasonable.

Woaw, gotta strongly disagree here.

Now, I agree that multiplayer is easier than solo…but I think it’s a good thing, because that way, I can help my friends that are either less geared or less good at videogames. I understand that you only suggest an increase in health to slow down the pace of the game in multi, but I don’t thing that’s a good idea, because multiplayer is inhernetly slower than solo.

Why? Because you first have to group, meaning set a time where everyone is available, solve connection issues eventually, and then I don’t know about you, but I chat a lot with the others in multiplayer, we discuss what we’re going to do, etc, etc,…

To sum it up, we can’t reach the efficiency that can be achieved in solo, and it’s not a bad thing, just a different experience.

That’s why I don’t think multiplayer should scale strongly and I feel the current balance is right.

Then why not mod the changes you propose right now :stuck_out_tongue:

Because from testing the mod, the experience was so much more positive I think it warrants looking into implementing to benefit the whole playerbase. Why don’t you try the mod with your friends and see what you think? :stuck_out_tongue: I even made a couple versions so different levels of hp scaling could be tried.

http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78124 (ignore hell difficulty)

Still have Shattered Realms and the Crucible to worry about though. Unless you are proposing a change exempting those 2 modes. Those 2 were my initial concerns too, not the main campaign, which I do agree can use a buff for the monsters in MP.

No need to make casual MP harder, people relax there.
Crucible MP difficulty also don’t need “buff”
And you should make SR MP harder, for players who want real challenge.

Out of all the modes and dungeons SR has the least need for harder MP. It literally gets indefinitely harder anyways. You will always come to a point sooner or later where SR is challenging.

Main Campaign and Crucible on the other hand have fixed difficulties. So increasing the difficulty has actually an impact on those.

Hitting monsters with players instead of damage isn’t something I have considered before, but it sounds intriguing.

Agree. I wouldn’t even mind excluding crucible from this suggestion since a lot of average players find crucible hard enough as it is, and it recently got a bit harder with some FG mutator changes.

It’s the campaign experience that becomes super easy past lvl 40ish if you’re playing with more than 1 friend. All I’m suggesting is actually that ultimate’s scaling be consistent with elite’s.

Fixed typo thanks.

To satisfy both veteran players and new players, the best solution would probably be to implement that change only to ultimate difficulty.

Or maybe sth like normal +18%, elite +36%, ultimate +54% HP.

Whether this change should affect only MC or also Crucible and SR I don’t really care too much.