I’ll be the dissonant voice and say that as such, I don’t like the idea.
I know that the “MOAAR” design philosophy is popular, but there’s such a thing as feature bloat and feature dilution (not to mention that it’ll of course contribute to even more power creep).
I’d rather see a “Trim Dawn” move aimed at removing obsolete and useless features (starting with randomized inventory shops - how is that game design abomination still a thing?? - and iron bits).
The very first step towards implementing customizable “potion skills” should be removing from the game all other potions (oils, elixirs, etc.).
FG emissary and portal is in ugdenbog (only for FG owners)
they can/could just similarly plant the asset/object with the same “strings” attached as they did for that, no?
not sure i get this, why is shops a bad idea? or the random stock?
I honestly disagree. I could see that argument for an korea-mmo with 100 different currencies for 100 different feature-aspects, but in case of Grim Dawn i always found that Crate did a good job to introduce new features in a meaningfull way alongside content without bloat it. And if they would ‘just’ add new content and no new features or anything else, you would people showing up and b’tching about it just being more of the same and stretching out the game/content.
For me personally that sounds like a horrible idea. In a Genre and Game where it’s all about randomized loot, a static inventory shop system (outside of faction stuff) feels super anticlimatic and unfun. It might be a rare occassion esp. later on when you know such games, that you tend to buy stuff, but the rare occassion when it happens or for people who start playing the game (and you can’t just add all items to consider every possibility a player might take with trying out builds, again makes it anticlimatic and boring if at one hand the game is build around rng loot, at the other hand you can just buy everything you need) it can be helpfull to have a item for leveling once in a while for your own build. And to remove the main-currency is also a super weird suggestion.
I really struggle with this. As someone who enjoy casually diablo 4 (and even back than diablo 3) - you regularly have to encounter people who try to annoy you with “d4 bad” and such; and even further as a maincritique how super simplistic&casual the game is - and how bad it is because of the lack of depth. Meanwhile you find instances like GD; Games which have a certain level of depth and then you see people who are actively want to push that away by cutting said depth. I don’t disagree with the general idea that there are sometimes features and stuff which might be unneccessary and it can be healthy to cut (or change) them. (which is a reason why i support them making healthpots infinite) The problem is you just need to strip enough the small things away and it loses it’s soul and initial appeal it had and hurts the game.
And removing Oils, Elixirs and such pretty much takes away from the game experience for people who love the thought of playing some sort of alchemist playstyle and such. Especially when we don’t even fully know (because nobody of us played it) how the new pot-system feels and if this could be a good replacement for elixirs and such, or if it complements the existing stuff.
i really like this idea. i don’t really feel removing iron bits and non faction vendors would have any real impact on the functionality of the game.
i also don’t like this idea. while their impact on game play is negligent their impact on immersion is pronounced. removing them would remove some of the non-meaningful decorations in the game. such as why have factions out fighting. i remember them being noticeable resource hogs. massive battle between factions and monsters used to slow my PC to a crawl. yet seeing them adds something to the game
yeah the game might perform better with all the extras removed. yeah it might be easier to pick up and learn. yeah it’d use up less data to download. yeah, yeah, yeah, but in the end it would be less of a game. less immersive. less substant. less, just less
doesn’t mean i don’t agree. i just see how such removals would lessen my overall enjoyment of the game. even if i never utilize those systems. just having them there means something to some primal subconscious part of my brain
What does “money” bring to the game?
For every use except common shops (and I’d want them gone) money is never the limiting factor. Components , scrap, dynamites, those are the ressources used. Money is just added as an artificial sink because it has no actual use.
Hell, even for faction shop, Reputation, not Iron, is the limiting factor.
The random stock.
Two possibilities: either the stock is potentially useful, or it’s not.
If it’s not (which is actually usually the case), then why the hell is it there in the first place?
If it is… then the “game play” it leads to is refresh the inventory until the item you need gets generated.
Wait, wut? Have you had a huge crafting session on boots? I blew through over 100 million recently (which might not even be that much compared to others), still had stacks of scrap, and didn’t see the prefix/suffix combination I was looking for.
Removing anything that has had programming time put into is a non efficient idea and, IMHO, turns into wasted development time. A better solution would be to use a reasonable amount of additional development resources/time and turn it into something else that adds to the game in a way that doesn’t invalidate other systems.
We shouldn’t be window shopping for loot but I agree that it should be a more useful feature. Though I am unsure how the average player uses shops. They might use them a lot because they do not posses the game knowledge to know the ins and outs of gearing in this game. So a solution should be a positive for the player and not for veterans only.
Fair enough, but I do find the common shops useful early on when playing self-found chars. From a big stash or higher level perspective they’re kinda useless I agree.
i did. up until recently. even playing a pure campaign run, drops are more then enough to make shops completely useless. in pure Crucible runs i don’t find them useful either. i do like hoarding scrap in both and shops help with that. but lately i haven’t even been doing that
only thing that holds back self found for me is crafting recipes. i’ll occasionally completely delete all save data. then recipes can be a issue. not necessarily game play wise, but it is extremely limiting. i will often beat The Warden and won’t even be able to craft a usable relic at that point. even when i’m well over level 25. often i just use whatever relic have a recipe for. if i can craft any
Crafting and buying exp-potions, also respeccing sometimes, becomes quite expensive. If you level characters often to 100 you do have to collect the rare gear and sell it, because you need the cash to build the character.
yes, that’s called RNG
just like sometimes drops are potentially useful and other times they are potentially not
Shops then allow you to get an additional source of RNG; so if your drops were bad, and you’re missing a particular stat, perhaps the shop can cover you until you get a better drop
whether or not a player chooses to utilize it, and in what manner/fishing, is then entirely up to them, it doesn’t make shops bad in either way, it gives the players options.
you know, except sense of progress in terms of stash expansion, crafting, and yes also buying stuff, because there are both faction shops and useful shops…
I don’t know when you last played a clean slate fresh stash run?
But if crafting only cost components, you could craft more “unlimited” amounts right from the get go. Dynamite costing money to craft limits how much you can craft early on so you’re not just treating it as a meaningless resource. Dismantling can suck up lots of money in double fashion then.
Likewise with item crafting, as they cost money on top of components, components which you might have a ton of, you might exhaust your money at multiple points throughout levelling.
That is to say nothing if when you find a nice MI in a shop which can bankrupt you in seconds, or faction items at a stage where you haven’t quite reached infinite money yet.
Respeccing cost increases so it’s not just treated entirely with carelessness (and yes i know people have contentious opinions on that)
Money mainly just becomes a sink at end, which is then what/when it deserves to be it, and then that sink still gives us non free/non infinite returns, because the sink can be utilized well and thus drained asap
^you’re running out of money much more/faster than you are scraps and platings when you’re trying to craft the perfect Stoneplate boots
@LeadShorts
I use the vendors. They are nice for filling slots while leveling. Sometimes you need a good Resistant armor or Of Alacrity weapon for 2 hours.
@Boer
Your Coven “hub” has no blacksmith or inventor!
You misunderstood my use of the word “potential”.
Nobody uses magical or rare items beyond the early game.
Those items aren’t useful, regardless of RNG, and that makes standard shops completely useless.
(Cue someone saying that they used one 5 years ago to cover a resistance gap for a coupla levels, so hey, that’s proof they have a use. )
MI shops have items with a potential use: and that’s where RNG comes in.
To exploit that potential and get the items you need, you go window shopping.
Which is the degree zero of gaming: keep rolling dice until the desired result comes up or you get fed up.
Farming is bad imo, but at least when farming you have the pretense of playing the game (pretense only because if there’s any challenge involved, you’re doing it wrong).
Bad options. Standard shops are a newbie trap at best, MI shops a gameplay abomination.
More options is not always a good thing.
All the time.
And you can’t be serious when claiming that money is the limiting factor for crafting dynamite.
Yeah, that would indeed be the one case in the current game “balance” where that’s true.
Still doesn’t mean that money is useful as a game element.
If somehow preventing players from crafting more than a few thousand boots in one go were a paramount concern (per the example posted above)… then just make the recipe require more scrap? Duh.
So yeah, rather than them adding more and more features, I’d rather they first cleaned up the existing features.
Remove those which are obsolete, and redeem core features which are seriously lacking.
For instance, get rid of bounties: the system has never worked, and after all these years, it’s clear now that they won’t fix it. So drop it.
Take the more intereresting bounties and make them true secondary quests.
At the same time, rework quests.
Now, that’s a core feature… which is seriously lacking (if only in the reward, ie incentive, department, but not only).
Another example would be mobs.
What’s the point of mobs in the game?
There’s such a power gap between mobs and the bosses that mobs are just no challenge, hence not fun.
For the most part, they have no drops.
Reputation gain is mainly through quests, but okay, they offer reputation… for your first character. After that, Writs have such ridiculous bonus levels that they might just set your reputation level to Revered upon activation.
XP? Sure, they’re the best source of XP so there’s that… but you reach max level extremely fast in the game, and after that? Mobs are pointless.
And yet, they’re a core feature of the game.
Finding an actual gameplay use for them is not an easy problem to solve, I’m fully aware of that.
But I’d rather see Crate tackle that issue than add yet another feature of dubious value.
New area, new class, new game mode, new loot customization options: all good and largely enough content for an expansion.
No need for MOOAR.
Do some cleanup instead.
To distract the player from the more dangerous enemies and also have something for the player to mow down. Plus, if only bosses existed in the wild, the game would look incredibly empty and boring.
Let’s not pretend there aren’t dangerous mobs in the game, from some buffing and healing allies, others ccing with trap, freeze, stun and so on, the enemies that have on death skills like exploding and leaving aether pools. There are even mobs that are almost as chonky as bosses like Aetherial Hulks and Abominations, the Void Oppressors, Ugdenbog Golems and so on.
Honestly, the game would kind of suck if it only had bosses.
Not everything is supposed to be useful for the entire game, some things are just meant to help the player at certain point in the progression.
Mock it as you will, this is literally their use. Patching a hole in a build where farming RNG may not have proven satisfactory.
MI shops are even more important, given the power inherent to MI skillmods.
That people can spam-refresh some of these shops as a means of farming in place of actually slaying enemies is a side-effect of the system, trying to get lucky in an “effortless” manner. It’s the opposite of efficient, but there’s no reason it shouldn’t be possible.
This might be the wrong genre for you.
How does this change anything? Scrap is as much a currency as Iron is, only difference being it takes up an inventory slot. You still get it from more or less the same sources, barring dismantling.
Raising the Scrap cost and eliminating the Iron cost of crafting Stoneplates incurs essentially no difference on gameplay. You’d still need to re-farm Scrap to be able to use it anywhere else, such as crafting other items, just as you currently need to re-acquire Iron after a Stoneplate dump.
MIs. Most mobs have some.
More to the point, though, they’re to keep you busy as you get from point A to point B, so that the journey is more than a scenic tour.
Reputation gain via quests is a small fraction of the overall requirement to reaching Revered/Nemesis. Most of that progress comes from slaying enemies.
when i’m doing boss only playing they are just part of the scenic tour. it doesn’t make them any less nice to have around. a apocalyptic hellscape should be full of monsters. it gives a sense of how dangerous the world is to any but the strongest warrior. kind of like those roaches and such off of Diablo 2. they weren’t needed. all they did was go squish under foot. but they still added something to the game just the same
just because something could easily be done without doesn’t mean it should be removed. at the very least every system that has been mentioned for removal adds to the ambiance. that may not be important to everyone but there are still many people that do fully enjoy features they don’t ever use. and some people utilize those features. every player matters
and what would the ultimate benefit be? my current potato barely even has a hamster in it and it still runs the game just fine. albeit at lowered settings. but the game runs fine. it looks fine. it doesn’t hitch up like it used to. what would the actual benefit be to taking stuff out?
being easier to pick up and play? i don’t see that happening. the game is complex. and yeah i haven’t figured a lot of stuff out. i don’t even play outside the first play through of the main campaign or the Crucible. but that’s my skill issue, not the games. and i still fully enjoy trying to figure the stuff out. i still fully enjoy the game
and i think that is what matters above all else. that as many people enjoy playing the game their way as possible. without ruining the integrity of the game. or ruining the game for others
i literally did that as recent as yday
and have recommended it to many beginners complaining about dying that had huge vital gaps in their defences several times too as a quick fix for their issues “since they didn’t have access to better sources/MIs or faction quartermaster” yet
heck it doesn’t even just have to be resist but other stats too, you straight up had people decrying an affix change couple PTRs ago because it meant it wouldn’t be available in the shop, and they wanted it/“liked it available in the shop” so they could get that additional source of it to boost them
bad opinion
yes, because this allows multiple different players and different player mindsets to be served
not even gonna go into “shopping have been a staple of ARPGs”; because the above/being able to serve different player wants or needs is enough
yes, literally, and i even told you exactly why
and as someone that literally got bust on money a couple of days crafting too much dynamite too early yes; money is literally the limiting factor as it gets expensive (and fast) early game
that is why i specifically asked you about a fresh start/clean slate run; because when you don’t have that stash of iron you can tangible feel it several times throughout your run vs a run where you have iron bars.
Specially if you flip flop so you accidentally/habitually treat your clean slate run as if you had iron bar and just craft or spend at will; you go bust several times throughout the run then
the difference and availability stored iron makes vs not is huge
yes, literally
“duh” per your genius overlapping effect/“collateral mechanic outcome” you also ensured players have even more infinite access to scrap than we already do
so no that’s indeed a worse solution
nothing prevents both, an expansion being worked on does not prohibit other aspects not being able to be polished or re-polished, if anything FG expansion showed this several times
however judging by your suggestions the difference is that seemingly you want an entirely different game if not entirely different genre of game/ARPG
you’re not asking for mere polish or cleanup, you’re asking for immense fundamental/radical different gameplay changes
I was thinking why I don’t like visiting universal vendors in GD. Came up with this:
I am wearing or can easily find better items than they sell. Except for maybe first few levels, but then I don’t have the money to spend anyway. High drop rates are partially to blame here. If monsters didn’t give me so much, then I would turn to vendors.
Universal vendors present their wares as a wall of stuff. Plenty of items, all mixed up: types and qualities. This mess alone is sometimes enough to discourage me from buying anything.
Universal vendors are all the same. If I visited one, it’s like I visited all. For example in Devil’s crossing we have 2 guys and I don’t know if there is any difference between them. Some specialisation would be cool. One could focus on two-handed ranged weapons, another - shields, next - anything with aether and elemental bonuses.
At some point in the game I know vendors don’t have anything for me. To spice things up, they could rarely offer singular epics or even legendaries at very high prices. Player may be unable to afford them for some time, but these items would be something to look forward too.
Many players remember Hyram and vendors in skeletal dungeons, because they offer something sought after. In case of Hyram even those aether crystals make a difference. Making vendors unique, memorable would help greatly. So would improving their inventory to not be mostly just yellow items when greens rain all around in the world.
I also had an idea that player could help vendors build their stock. The more good items we sell to a given guy, the better ones he generates in return. This would work well with unique vendors. For example if I want a better axe, I should remember to sell items to him and eventually he might provide something for me.
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