This is quite an argument of authority. Its true that his comments have relevance concerning his decision whether he wants to implement it or not, but mechanically spoken, they are pretty meaningless after they implemented a second control scheme. Not implementing a second control scheme because of the balance and the functionality was his entire argument. Also, there are already isometric RPGs with WASD movement out there, why does it need to be another genre just because of the movement input?
Now this was actually seven years ago and opinions can change, who knows how he thinks about it right now.
What I meant is that quotes from 2012 about the state of the game mean absolutely nothing if the work has already been done.
The fact remains that WASD type movement exists you just require a controller to play the game with it.
Is there a single argument against WASD movement that doesn’t boil down to “the ceo said so” ?
If we can all agree that there is not then the only remaining thing to do is to talk with medierra and attempt to change his mind.
Just because there are other argp’s with this movement, that have been designed from the start to have this, that argument has no standing regards whether any other game has to have this same mechanisim, that’s like demanding all arpg’s be identical because.
Regardless of this though, it’s obvious you’re passionate about having WASD in Grim Dawn, but I think you need to understand that regardless of how much you want this, it’s not your game and you’re not the only person playing. At the end of the day it’s down to the developers of any game to decide what is or isn’t in their game, regardless of how passionate any player is about it.
You can either accept that Crate have said it’s not happening and either create a mod with it or play the game as the devs designed it to be played and enjoy yourself… or you can keep arguing and banging your head against a brick wall and get nothing other than frustrated.
WASD fundamentally changes ranged gameplay in a way controller support never will. It would necessitate rebalancing the game and, as has been said, requires that we support yet another control scheme.
Controller support enables us to release on console. What does WASD do besides create new headaches?
While I do not see any problem in setting a WASD like movement to be “Pretend the stick is in the left position for key A” on a Controller, I agree that it’s just a headache right now.
And having a gamespeed setting like Titan Quest AE would be much more important. Less time spent on running between points in campaign = more fun, more characters.
You probably misunderstood my post. I was refering to this:
They saw the need to change the genre, because of the input, but that shouldnt be necessary if there are already ARPGs using that input.
Also what you say about me demanding “identical” mechanics, isnt it the other way around? Because 99% of all ARPGs have mouse movement. I actually demand something new which isnt identical to the rest.
I am giving feedback based on my opinion, how did you get the assumption that I think I own the game? I am simply stating what would make the game more fun to me and am trying to argue about that.
How does it change the ranged gameplay fundamentally if you are already able to stutter step, not just as precise? Dodging and attacking at the same time isnt possible, with or without WASD.
What parts of the game would need to be rebalanced when adding WASD? The game doesnt seem to be balanced around being a bullet hell, so more precise movements wont break the game I suppose. I cant think of any enemy attack that gets trivialized by WASD movement, especially because attacking interrupts movement anyways.
Actually there are quite some threads in the internet asking about ARPGs with WASD, so what it does is probably net in some new players. Though if its worthwhile or not, obviously also depends on the amount of work you need to implement it.
This is my last attempt to explain this and I simply give up if this doesn’t make it understandable for you.
Moving with the controller or stutter stepping as you call it also moves the target point of where you’re attacking, especially if you’re trying to target a boss / hero in the middle of a group of mobs as you move the char around, while being able to hold the mouse stationary on a single chosen target with one hand, while moving with WASD, vastly improves the speed and accuracy of all ranged attacks, very straight forward, simple and to the point… and no you cannot control as well or as accurately with any form of controller over a mouse.
Tell me which attacks need to be aimed with such accuracy? Most skill have AOE.
I tried stutter stepping by mouse right now with a crossbow, I hit 9 of 10 times. With WASD I would probably hit 10 of 10 times. 10% more accuracy isnt breaking the game.
How does it improve the speed? You still have to wait for the attack animation before you can move anyway. Just try stutter stepping with a controller and you see what I mean. As long as you are quick on your mouse, you can click before the animation is done.
Moving with a controller is actually more precise than WASD because of 360 degree instead of 8 directions. Aiming is obivously worse but as I said, Grim Dawn doesnt require me to aim with such accuracy anyway. Most enemies stand still or charge directly onto you, since when do we need to target a specific mob with a specific skill in a group of monsters that kills me if I dont?
How could that even be a requirement if not all masteries feature a skill that enables you to hit a specific target behind a group of enemies like Doom Bolt or Storm Box which doesnt really count as its a DoT skill.
To summarize, yes I understand your point. I just think it is not nearly as game breaking as you make it, not even close.
Now if it were true that it was a fundamental change and that it would necessitate re-balancing the game which would likely make mouse movement redundant which basically would mean changing the control scheme of the game entirely from one to the other and dropping the previous one then I’d definitely agree such a change would probably be silly to even bring up.
Sadly this fundamental difference you’re speaking of comes with no example and the only difference that has yet been mentioned is kiting which I believe we’re all past that one now.
So please provide an explanation of this fundamental difference and an example of why it would require re-balancing of the game so I can get back to you on that.
In the meantime however:
I would just say that a lot of changes made to the game introduce headaches but are done for a multitude of different reasons, several QOL changes might not make you big dollar bills at the end of the month but might dramatically increase the amount of fun some people get out of the game and WASD movement is one of them.
If you needed another reason than that its also entirely possible some people buy the game after learning that it is getting WASD movement thus providing a monetary incentive to do so.
You are right, though I suppose trying out is still better than just saying its broken without testing.
Also I am no aiming expert, most people will be able to stutter step and still hit the desired target most of the time.
I’ve taken pains to register just to pitch in.
I don’t understand why there’s such bias against WASD in arpg.
To me it seems more like a religious thing than a thing of reason.
I don’t get the argument of kiting - you can do the same with mouse - you just have to be fast.
I don’t get the argument that it wouldn’t work, cause it would.
I understand the sentiment, heck, Diablo, which started it all, happened 25+ years ago.
I’ve been wasting literally years of my life playing games like this.
having said all that - I don’t understand why letting the player move with WASD and attack with mouse suddenly defile the whole experience.
It just works - in my opinion it makes the game way more enjoyable: no more frantic pointer jerks to kite, no more deaths cause you’re attacking the guy when in reality you really wanted to just gtfo.
Can we pleaaaase have it?
Console peasants have it and we dont? Now, that’s a disgrace!
I feel you my man. Don’t get your hopes up, remember these are the same developers that are anti magic an won’t add staves/wands because it’s too magical (you’ve played this game you know there’s a TON of magic.) But will add off hand tomes and “wands” that are actually just stat stick maces for mages.
Wouldn’t be as bad if we had WASD movement cause currently if you’re a mage and you mislick you run in melee cause your only ranged weapon options are rifles that need dexterity, if they had their own dedicated attack style option like in EVERY SINGLE OTHER GAME IN THE GENRE you wouldn’t sometimes accidentally run in melee range on a misclick. Also just freakin immersion, playing a mage with a shotgun feels WRONG.
Anyhow rant aside about the hypocrisies with these devs, I wish you good luck, I got told off by one of them for bringing it up, maybe you can convince them. <3
P.S Seriously though, rangers get guns, melee dudes get melee weapons… mages get… one of those options… not their own… lovely…
repeats it with some frequency, like once per second if you hold W
Or it could maybe even somehow buffer button and mouse clicks if they happen to be pressed in this short window so that they are properly aimed.
This is is how I emulate 60 degress mouse camera rotation (just drag the cursor instead of just clicking) with A and D. Crazy idea but it works great so maybe this will too if fine tuned.
“This is pretty much what I plan to do. In GD I’m moving away from the typical feeble staff / wand wielding caster image and towards a more badass image as a specialist soldier type. To that end, casters will wield either melee weapons or guns but there will be a left-hand item called a fulcrum that will function as a sort of supporting piece of gear similar to a shield for warrior, but probably more oriented towards boosting offensive power and energy.”
“I’m not afraid of players ignoring melee weapons or guns, I just see staffs and wands as being sort of redundant, not fitting that well with the fiction, and really kind of taking away from what a real spell caster should be - a class that relies primarily on spells instead of a weapon. I mean a staff in TQ is basically a bow with different art and animations. So since we already have a ranged weapon class, I think it is a lot more interesting to have the pure archetypal caster classes using spells instead of an alternative ranged weapon.”
“The fantasy of spark-throwing wands or staves does not really fit the lore and gritty world of Grim Dawn, so we had to consider what a weapon used by spellcasters in Cairn would actually be. In the end, we settled on two distinct weapon types: Daggers and Scepters. These two archetypes fit the vision of devious sorcerers slitting their palms over a ritual circle, or powerful priests swinging implements of righteous fire at the foul undead.”
We have necromancers with “wands” and “scepters” that are just stat stick maces. Mages will always be a spell casting class, but pretending they’re using “wands” and “scepters” that are anything but what their name would suggest just to force them to be melee classes is insanity, mages should not be using daggers or maces, it doesn’t fit with the archetype. And this nonsense that keeps getting repeated about the gritty lore of the world is ridiculous. Your gritty lore / world whatever includes necromancers, shamans, arcanists, and more magic related classes that fit very well in this fantasy world, denying them their own unique weapon style because it would be “redundant” is grade A bs.
Bows/Guns/Maces do not make real Wands/Staves redundant, in theory the wand/staff is a focus point for the mage, or a channeling tool for their power, not its own thing, a wand held by a non magic user should be just a stick.
It’s the mage the makes the stick special, and forcing mages to run around with rifles/bows/melee weapons that rely on stats other than typical mage stats like Spirit forces them to have to choose between going pure spell caster with essentially no weapon whatsoever or to reduce their spell casting capabilities in order to have a useful… dagger… on a class meant to be glass cannons and can’t get close to enemies safely to use said dagger.
And you call them scepters, but they look and act like typical maces. If you want to use a ranged weapon as a MAGE you have to go halvesies with the idea of being a mage and being a freakin archer, or likewise with being a gunslinger. You can’t JUST be a mage. Why are mages so gimped?
Also you can equip a spell component onto a weapon and it can KIND of mimic the same effect but none of the spell component spells are really any good at any stage, they don’t scale well, and even if they did they still have cooldowns and whatnot associated with them, making them a poor choice for a last line of defense weapon (your primary method of attack will always be spellcasting your weapon being for when you’re out of mana/all cooldowns). It’s just a jank system put in place when the real thing would have been so much better.
