WASD movement after Controller Support

[Zlysium]

So there have been a lot of topics on this subject over the years and I’ve read all that I found, including all the dev comments on the subject.

So I want to bring the discussion back now that its already done.

By already done of course I’m referring to controller support that includes WASD movement essentially.

Early dev comments on the subject are essentially saying that it would be too much work for too little reward since it wouldn’t add much to the game.
But you’ve done it already.
The thumbstick is controlling the character in exactly the same way that WASD would the only difference is you can get a little bit more accurate with it.

I’ve attempted simulating the left thumbstick with WASD using Autohotkey
by setting D to joystick right and so on for the other 3 keys.

While this works and WASD then controls character movement perfectly the problem then becomes apparent that in Grim Dawn if one of the two control schemes (keyboard/mouse or Controller) is actively being used, as in you’re using thumbstick to move (even if simulated) the game locks the control scheme to that one.
Which disables the other keys (the ones not currently pretending to be a thumbstick) and the mouse.
If the game just didn’t do this then it would be perfectly playable.

A work around would be to completely emulate a controller with the keyboard and mouse. Which is possible to do I just didn’t bother trying to because it would be playable except for but one reason, which is the camera.
How would I possibly emulate the right thumbstick to control the camera with the mouse? I couldn’t figure out how to manage that one xD.

So I wasn’t able to make it work but it was still proof that it is now at this point EASILY doable. The comment medierra made on the subject in 2012 no longer means anything.
Not that it made much sense anyways as he was also saying “it would result in a totally broken and horribly imbalanced game.”
But I digress, at this point it well and truly would be almost no work at all to allow us to play with WASD.
Any work that needed to be done behind the scenes to make it work has clearly already been done.
There are no reasons why it cannot be enabled as medierra himself said “While it would not be too difficult to enable,” And that was in 2012.

So please and thank you.
P.S I love the game <3

I would also ask if it would be possible to allow us to bind keys to right click. Having enforced keybinds is icky and unnecessary. Dunno why you’d go to the effort to make it unbindable anyways, and of course I can use autohotkey to bypass the restriction so it isn’t a big deal at all, not like WASD movement anyways <3

[Jaknet]

p.s…as I nearly forgot. Welcome to the forums

But you’ve done it already.

I feel you’re missing completely the point of WHY WASD isn’t ever going to be included, while the char can be moved by a controller equivalent.

When using WASD and a mouse it enables you to play in a way that’s completely impossible with either the mouse or using a controller.

Basically by seperating the movement from the mouse, you become able to doge and move in any direction while attacking in a different direction, esp with ranged builds.

Thus moving sideways and backwards with WASD while holding the mouse cursor still on whatever mob you are attacking is completely at odds with how the game is made and how the difficulty is designed.

Do you see the difference and the problems it would cause with chars suddenly gaining such massive mobility and being able to attack and move, separately, in any drection at the same time.

[Zlysium]

p.s…as I nearly forgot. Welcome to the forums

When using WASD and a mouse it enables you to play in a way that’s completely impossible with either the mouse or using a controller.

Basically by seperating the movement from the mouse, you become able to doge and move in any direction while attacking in a different direction, esp with ranged builds.

Thus moving sideways and backwards with WASD while holding the mouse cursor still on whatever mob you are attacking is completely at odds with how the game is made and how the difficulty is designed.

Yeah but no.
You can already do this with no difficulty on controller, enemy to your top right you can move down left and every time you want to attack you make a very small top right movement to make your character face the enemy and press the corresponding button for attack.

It’s incredibly simple and not at all difficult to kite, you can also do the same with keyboard/mouse it’s just painful to make as many mouse movements.
If you’ve ever played a MOBA you know what I’m talking about, especially if you play Marksman in LoL.
It’s already possible, it’s already pretty damn easy. It most definitely doesn’t imbalance the game at all.

Think of it another way. If the difficulty of the game was only apparent due to a lack of ability to adequately control your character as you’re implying,
is that good?
You’re basically saying that if we were given the ability to really control our characters the games difficulty would be somehow lower.
How sad that would be to have a games difficulty tied to artificially limiting player input.

It just seems to me that the people who are against WASD are selfish.
In your case it seems like you feel it would make the game easier and you don’t want to play an easier game so no one should get WASD.

In other peoples cases I’ve seen them anti-wasd for no other reason than the game is an ARPG and you cannot be having WASD in an ARPG (never you mind the other ARPGs with WASD movement.)

Worst still are the people who are anti-wasd without a solid reason.

If it’s added to the game it wouldn’t hurt you, you could choose quite simply not to use it. So what exactly is the problem with it being added?
How does it being added negatively affect ANYONE?

I welcome any other arguments you might come up with and will enjoy rebuking them if possible.
I cannot foresee an argument I cannot rebuke but hey if it happens it happens.
Also thanks for welcoming me, and have a great day

[Schafusmatus]

You got my vote for sure.

Stutter stepping is already possible but unnecessarily complicated. If you played any rts or moba you are probably already familiar with it. But when there is only one character to control, I cant find any good reasons to not split movement and targeting, as it makes your character feel much more controllable.

Good examples in gaming for that: Forced, Alien Shooter, Gauntlet - those are more arcade like games with rpg elements.

As long as attack animiations still stop your movement, the difficulty isnt affected at all, in my opinion. Lets be honest, in games like Grim Dawn, the difficulty is mostly based on gear checks and knowledge barriers, which stats are important for example. The only thing WASD controls would change is the ease of use.

There could be a problem for melee characters, when holding down move buttons while attacking and by that canceling it. But I checked if attacks can be canceled by movement, which isnt possible. If the animation starts, the attack is executed in any case. Therefore its not a problem for melee characters.

I think the most common argument will be “all arpgs are played with mouse movement”. Though this is obviously a bad argument, as it doesnt reveal any benefits of said mechanic. I think the reason so many games still play like that is just history, imitating old popular games, hoping for success by bringing back good memories. Just like the endless sequels in the filming business. Its always a risk to try something new, though adding it as an option would mean players can decide themselves how to play.

In my opinion, the mouse movement is not what made games like Diablo 1 successful. It was just a control system easily available at that time, but the setting, the mood, the iconic enemies, the fresh real-time combat and the graphics for that time, made it such a successful title.

Not every mechanic in those older succesful titles were perfect or even preferable, but the demands were also lower, because we didnt knew anything better. Try playing Dune 2000, a very old rts, after having played Starcraft 2 and you will curse about the fact, that you cant select more than one unit. The same applies to arpgs, just a little example: imagine if you had to sort gold in your chest in piles of 5k in Grim Dawn, I dont think anyone would genuinely argue to bring that back into the arpg genre.

Having these old mechanics doesnt mean the game cant be fun, but why not improve it to make it even more fun?

[Zlysium]

Schafusmatus thank you for the vote
I particularly am appreciative that you mentioned issuing an attack command halts movement until the animation is complete because it punches another hole into the difficulty argument that Jaknet offered.

Allowing WASD movement doesn’t magically allow you to move and attack at the same time.
It just allows your left hand to contribute something and your right hand a bit of a break. (assuming you hold mouse with right hand)

<3

[Ceno]

You may not like it, but Jaknet’s response is accurate:

My problem with WASD in GD is that the fundamental movement and combat systems in the game were not designed to accommodate it. We could hack it in and some people would probably use it but overall I think it would make the game feel less polished and less well designed.

[…]

If we were building a new game from scratch and totally rewriting the way skills, combat, and movement work then you might very well see WASD make an appearance.

Actually adding the ability to move your char based on WASD wouldn’t be too difficult. You just wouldn’t be able to use half the skills in the game properly.

We actually implemented WASD on a TQ2 prototype when I was at ILE and it was kind of cool, although a totally different game (we’d turned the camera into 3rd-person over the shoulder). However, a lot of extra work would have been required to make it work with the existing skill system, balance it, and make it not feel like a total hack.

I think it is also much easier to design and balance the game around one control scheme. I’d really only want to go WASD if we were creating a new game where that was going to be the only control scheme. Trying to support both is very difficult and most games that try suffer from it. At the very least, one control scheme ends up being more advantageous than the other.

I guess I’d also point out that developers in the quotes posted above indicate that they have ultimately chosen not to support WASD because they didn’t feel it would be beneficial to the game.

Grim Dawn gameplay was not designed around the capabilities of WASD movement. It isn’t that it’s impossible or unfeasible to implement, it’s just that it’d essentially break the core game flow.

[DeMasked]

It just allows your left hand to contribute something and your right hand a bit of a break. (assuming you hold mouse with right hand)

I’ve actually bound “Move Only” to #2 and only use the mouse for right click skills or left clicking on items/interactable objects. Sometimes I’ll put some sort of auto attack skill for the left mouse button.

I’m neither for nor against WASD for Grim Dawn as I can see pros and cons for both sides therefore I’ll stick with neutrality while ya’ll slug it out

[Zlysium]

You’ve copy pasted some comments that have absolutely no bearing on this conversation any longer.

Maybe at one point those comments meant something (I seriously cannot see how) but they definitely don’t after controller support was added.

If there was some hiccup somewhere that once would have made “You just wouldn’t be able to use half the skills in the game properly.” then it exists no longer.

I think we can agree that on controller the game is 100% playable and 50% of the skills don’t suddenly stop functioning. That would be absurd.

All the left thumbstick is doing is WASD movement but with omni-directional movement instead of 8 directional movement.

He also states “Trying to support both is very difficult and most games that try suffer from it. At the very least, one control scheme ends up being more advantageous than the other.”

But we already have two control schemes.

And adding WASD movement isn’t adding a third

If one control scheme being more advantageous than the other is a problem (it isn’t a PVP game so this means absolutely nothing once again) then adding WASD movement to Kb/M users is simply evening the playing field.

I can literally use these comments to pick themselves apart I don’t need to reach whatsoever. They’re self-defeating at this point.

Again I want to remind you that WASD movement already exists in the current game. It comes in the form of the left thumbstick on your controller.

Grim Dawn gameplay was not designed around the capabilities of WASD movement. It isn’t that it’s impossible or unfeasible to implement, it’s just that it’d essentially break the core game flow.

Thus this comment also defeats itself.

[Zlysium]

I’ve actually bound “Move Only” to #2 and only use the mouse for right click skills or left clicking on items/interactable objects. Sometimes I’ll put some sort of auto attack skill for the left mouse button.

I’m neither for nor against WASD for Grim Dawn as I can see pros and cons for both sides therefore I’ll stick with neutrality while ya’ll slug it out

I know you’re saying you’re neither for or against so I’d hate to drag you into a debate against your will but what cons?
What possible cons can there be?

[medea_fleecestealer]

You’ve copy pasted some comments that have absolutely no bearing on this conversation any longer.

Maybe at one point those comments meant something (I seriously cannot see how) but they definitely don’t after controller support was added.

If there was some hiccup somewhere that once would have made “You just wouldn’t be able to use half the skills in the game properly.” then it exists no longer.

I think we can agree that on controller the game is 100% playable and 50% of the skills don’t suddenly stop functioning. That would be absurd.

All the left thumbstick is doing is WASD movement but with omni-directional movement instead of 8 directional movement.

He also states “Trying to support both is very difficult and most games that try suffer from it. At the very least, one control scheme ends up being more advantageous than the other.”

But we already have two control schemes.

And adding WASD movement isn’t adding a third

If one control scheme being more advantageous than the other is a problem (it isn’t a PVP game so this means absolutely nothing once again) then adding WASD movement to Kb/M users is simply evening the playing field.

I can literally use these comments to pick themselves apart I don’t need to reach whatsoever. They’re self-defeating at this point.

Again I want to remind you that WASD movement already exists in the current game. It comes in the form of the left thumbstick on your controller.

Thus this comment also defeats itself.

Um, those copy/pasted comments are from the founder of Crate Entertainment, the CEO and person who has the final say on what goes into the game or not. So I’d say they’re pretty relevant.

As recently as 10th March this year no WASD was confirmed in a dev stream

http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69297

so it’s unlikely to happen.

Edit: Thanks for the quotes Ceno. That’s helped me possibly answer a question over on the Steam TQ forum.

[Schafusmatus]

Um, those copy/pasted comments are from the founder of Crate Entertainment, the CEO and person who has the final say on what goes into the game or not. So I’d say they’re pretty relevant.

As recently as 10th March this year no WASD was confirmed in a dev stream

http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69297

so it’s unlikely to happen.

Edit: Thanks for the quotes Ceno. That’s helped me possibly answer a question over on the Steam TQ forum.

This is quite an argument of authority. Its true that his comments have relevance concerning his decision whether he wants to implement it or not, but mechanically spoken, they are pretty meaningless after they implemented a second control scheme. Not implementing a second control scheme because of the balance and the functionality was his entire argument. Also, there are already isometric RPGs with WASD movement out there, why does it need to be another genre just because of the movement input?

Now this was actually seven years ago and opinions can change, who knows how he thinks about it right now.

[Zlysium]

Um, those copy/pasted comments are from the founder of Crate Entertainment, the CEO and person who has the final say on what goes into the game or not. So I’d say they’re pretty relevant.

As recently as 10th March this year no WASD was confirmed in a dev stream

http://www.grimdawn.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69297

so it’s unlikely to happen.

Edit: Thanks for the quotes Ceno. That’s helped me possibly answer a question over on the Steam TQ forum.

What I meant is that quotes from 2012 about the state of the game mean absolutely nothing if the work has already been done.
The fact remains that WASD type movement exists you just require a controller to play the game with it.

Is there a single argument against WASD movement that doesn’t boil down to “the ceo said so” ?

If we can all agree that there is not then the only remaining thing to do is to talk with medierra and attempt to change his mind.

[medea_fleecestealer]

This is quite an argument of authority. Its true that his comments have relevance concerning his decision whether he wants to implement it or not, but mechanically spoken, they are pretty meaningless after they implemented a second control scheme. Not implementing a second control scheme because of the balance and the functionality was his entire argument. Also, there are already isometric RPGs with WASD movement out there, why does it need to be another genre just because of the movement input?

Now this was actually seven years ago and opinions can change, who knows how he thinks about it right now.

Well, given that Zantai confirmed no WASD in March I doubt it’s changed.

[Jaknet]

Also, there are already isometric RPGs with WASD movement out there,

Just because there are other argp’s with this movement, that have been designed from the start to have this, that argument has no standing regards whether any other game has to have this same mechanisim, that’s like demanding all arpg’s be identical because.

Regardless of this though, it’s obvious you’re passionate about having WASD in Grim Dawn, but I think you need to understand that regardless of how much you want this, it’s not your game and you’re not the only person playing. At the end of the day it’s down to the developers of any game to decide what is or isn’t in their game, regardless of how passionate any player is about it.

You can either accept that Crate have said it’s not happening and either create a mod with it or play the game as the devs designed it to be played and enjoy yourself… or you can keep arguing and banging your head against a brick wall and get nothing other than frustrated.

[toapeiron]

The guy has a point, but he’s so incredibly arrogant and dense that I wish that Crate never adds WASD controls just to despise him

I couldn’t care less about WASD control in my arpgs, anyway.

[Zantai]

WASD fundamentally changes ranged gameplay in a way controller support never will. It would necessitate rebalancing the game and, as has been said, requires that we support yet another control scheme.

Controller support enables us to release on console. What does WASD do besides create new headaches?

How’s that for an update on a 7 year old opinion.

[Boromonokli]

While I do not see any problem in setting a WASD like movement to be “Pretend the stick is in the left position for key A” on a Controller, I agree that it’s just a headache right now.

And having a gamespeed setting like Titan Quest AE would be much more important. Less time spent on running between points in campaign = more fun, more characters.

[Schafusmatus]

Just because there are other argp’s with this movement, that have been designed from the start to have this, that argument has no standing regards whether any other game has to have this same mechanisim, that’s like demanding all arpg’s be identical because.

You probably misunderstood my post. I was refering to this:

We actually implemented WASD on a TQ2 prototype when I was at ILE and it was kind of cool, although a totally different game (we’d turned the camera into 3rd-person over the shoulder). However, a lot of extra work would have been required to make it work with the existing skill system, balance it, and make it not feel like a total hack.

They saw the need to change the genre, because of the input, but that shouldnt be necessary if there are already ARPGs using that input.
Also what you say about me demanding “identical” mechanics, isnt it the other way around? Because 99% of all ARPGs have mouse movement. I actually demand something new which isnt identical to the rest.

Regardless of this though, it’s obvious you’re passionate about having WASD in Grim Dawn, but I think you need to understand that regardless of how much you want this, it’s not your game and you’re not the only person playing. At the end of the day it’s down to the developers of any game to decide what is or isn’t in their game, regardless of how passionate any player is about it.

You can either accept that Crate have said it’s not happening and either create a mod with it or play the game as the devs designed it to be played and enjoy yourself… or you can keep arguing and banging your head against a brick wall and get nothing other than frustrated.

I am giving feedback based on my opinion, how did you get the assumption that I think I own the game? I am simply stating what would make the game more fun to me and am trying to argue about that.

WASD fundamentally changes ranged gameplay in a way controller support never will. It would necessitate rebalancing the game and, as has been said, requires that we support yet another control scheme.

Controller support enables us to release on console. What does WASD do besides create new headaches?

How’s that for an update on a 7 year old opinion.

How does it change the ranged gameplay fundamentally if you are already able to stutter step, not just as precise? Dodging and attacking at the same time isnt possible, with or without WASD.

What parts of the game would need to be rebalanced when adding WASD? The game doesnt seem to be balanced around being a bullet hell, so more precise movements wont break the game I suppose. I cant think of any enemy attack that gets trivialized by WASD movement, especially because attacking interrupts movement anyways.

Actually there are quite some threads in the internet asking about ARPGs with WASD, so what it does is probably net in some new players. Though if its worthwhile or not, obviously also depends on the amount of work you need to implement it.

[Jaknet]

How does it change the ranged gameplay fundamentally if you are already able to stutter step, not just as precise? Dodging and attacking at the same time isnt possible, with or without WASD.

This is my last attempt to explain this and I simply give up if this doesn’t make it understandable for you.

Moving with the controller or stutter stepping as you call it also moves the target point of where you’re attacking, especially if you’re trying to target a boss / hero in the middle of a group of mobs as you move the char around, while being able to hold the mouse stationary on a single chosen target with one hand, while moving with WASD, vastly improves the speed and accuracy of all ranged attacks, very straight forward, simple and to the point… and no you cannot control as well or as accurately with any form of controller over a mouse.

[Schafusmatus]

This is my last attempt to explain this and I simply give up if this doesn’t make it understandable for you.

Moving with the controller or stutter stepping as you call it also moves the target point of where you’re attacking, especially if you’re trying to target a boss / hero in the middle of a group of mobs as you move the char around, while being able to hold the mouse stationary on a single chosen target with one hand, while moving with WASD, vastly improves the speed and accuracy of all ranged attacks, very straight forward, simple and to the point… and no you cannot control as well or as accurately with any form of controller over a mouse.

Tell me which attacks need to be aimed with such accuracy? Most skill have AOE.

I tried stutter stepping by mouse right now with a crossbow, I hit 9 of 10 times. With WASD I would probably hit 10 of 10 times. 10% more accuracy isnt breaking the game.

How does it improve the speed? You still have to wait for the attack animation before you can move anyway. Just try stutter stepping with a controller and you see what I mean. As long as you are quick on your mouse, you can click before the animation is done.

Moving with a controller is actually more precise than WASD because of 360 degree instead of 8 directions. Aiming is obivously worse but as I said, Grim Dawn doesnt require me to aim with such accuracy anyway. Most enemies stand still or charge directly onto you, since when do we need to target a specific mob with a specific skill in a group of monsters that kills me if I dont?
How could that even be a requirement if not all masteries feature a skill that enables you to hit a specific target behind a group of enemies like Doom Bolt or Storm Box which doesnt really count as its a DoT skill.

To summarize, yes I understand your point. I just think it is not nearly as game breaking as you make it, not even close.