Yeah, and that’s actually more of an issue imo, one that I wouldn’t want made even worse.
And to go back to the example discussed, elemental damage, that would be the rare damage type where you still have that option. Get all three -RR% devotions, get some of them, or get none.
That is not an issue. That is a game design and I am fine with it.
It is not common for elemental builds to go for the three RR devos… It is common to go for damage with Attak Seru and Blind Sage using Rhowan’s Crown.
So, being “forced” to pick a specific devotion: not an issue, just good game design.
Being “forced” to pick a specific ring: bad game design, issue that needs fixing.
I kinda fail to see the difference?
One thing comes to mind: call me old school, I believe a build should be defined first and foremost by skill choices (and I include devotions in there), with gear being a secondary aspect.
If you consider that gear should be what defines a build, where the interesring choices should be, while you’re fine with just applying a no-brainer skill distribution template, then it makes sense.
We’re just talking from opposite ends of the spectrum.
Now, to your credit, Grim Dawn’s development history does support your view (if it is indeed your view), with the game becoming more gear-centric patch after patch.
You have to use high RR sources… Devos, skills… You can get away without using low RR sources… Rings, relics… It could be homogenized so that there are only medium RR sources but then there would be even more incentive to take all of them… Nerfing RR on rings and relics and buffing their damage and moving some of the RR to already high sources will actually make more variety.
And yes, some things in GD are mandatory for a proper build. Always have been and always will be… And yet there are still so many possible workable combinations…
There’s a giant difference between like two or three devotions (which most of the time you can pick all of them at once) and having ten rings for the same damage type but you always go for the same one because the other nine don’t have the thing the tenth ring has.
The former is clear by the devs that they want you to pick that devotion (i.e pick Eldritch Fire for Fire builds), the latter is bad game design because the item balance is out of wack due to one single item being far better than others.
Just for the record, my initial point is precisely that you do not have to pick that “tenth ring” every single time, that -RR% on rings does not make them the only viable choice for that slot.
If that were the case, I would agree, since I don’t like being railroaded into my choices (hence why I don’t like the Devotion railroading).
That being said… I’m having a hard time following you guys.
You have no objection to having several slots locked because of skills modifiers for instance (or do you?), but “locked” because of -RR is bad (again, my position is that they’re actually not: you do not have to pick the -RR ring)?
I don’t care about -Phys res% on Matriarch, I’m free to ignore it and pick something else (and often do - although I noticed recently that the top 20 Avenger Warder uses 2x Gollus, so that’s no longer my “special”) because I don’t think that mod trumps everything else.
I do resent the fact I don’t have a choice of a weapon when levelling a 1-H BA soldier for instance. There’s more than 10 models of 1H weapons, but one was made so obviously better than the others for that.
You guys seem to have embraced the paint-by-number approach to Grim Dawn builds (hence the zilliion posts asking for an item tailor-made for such and such build). Why the particular beef with those slots? Why would it be perfectly fine to have 5 slots locked by a set, a coupla others locked by skill modifiers on MIs, but definitely not OK to have one locked by an -RR mod?
Except it does and that’s the problem i and others have with the RR on rings. Even just 10% resistance reduction is a noticeable boost in damage.
The mere fact someone made a thread asking for lightning RR in a ring is proof that all the other rings with RR are BiS for most builds.
Because RR on rings is an incredibly generic thing that all builds for that damage type can use, sets that enable builds are specifically made for those builds.
And it’s not like there isn’t precedent of stuff getting nerfed or outright removed because of being too generic. Shattered Realm set got nerfed for being used in too many builds, same for Beronath amulet and so on.
I would say it’s a proof they’re perceived as BiS, not that they are.
Maybe they actually are, maybe they’re not. As usual, the truth is most likely in-between.
I’ve given an example where the best builders consider them not to be (Avenger Warder), and another example where that mod isn’t enough to make the item seem BiS (Ignaffar relic for Discord BM: it seems obvious as a BiS relic for me, but the fact it’s an Inquisitor relic seems enough to disqualify it for most people).
That said, those examples might very well be exceptions to the rule.
Alright, that’s an argument I can accept, since after all it’s the same argument I extend to mandatory devotion paths.
They are perceived as BiS because they are. People test these things and notice the damage increase from RR in ring procs is actually pretty big.
Avenger Warder is a build specifically made around health regen and Gollus ring is loaded with health regen and gives points to buffs with health regen.
So they are, except when they’re not.
Right.
Amen to that.
People have a problem with statistical statements… RR rings being BiS is a true statement from the perspective of statistics. And few cases where it is different do not invalidate such a statement.
A couple of extreme exceptions doesn’t change anything, they are BiS in the overall scheme of things and that’s the problem.
Also, you can slap RR rings on the very few exceptions and most likely not lose much at all, on top of probably killing stuff faster. So the argument that they are BiS is made stronger when builds with extremely specific options still benefit greatly from those BiS items.
again, “viable” is the wrong term, specially in the context of GD, anything is viable, but just in general gameplay sense, everything will be viable if the person/player has low enough tolerances
^you have people out there spending over an hour killing Celestials, a feat most toxic builders would scoff at so hard they enter a coma, yet to that player it was not just viable to the degree of being ok, they might even be proud of that performance.
It’s not a question of being “viable” but whether a slot “default” offers too much of a technical advantage over other things, to the point it’s too much/frequently "the best, or for lack of better terms “picked (too) frequently”.
It doesn’t matter if you don’t want or need “better”, but it doesn’t change the fact you’re technically leaving stuff on the table, (everytime where it’s the case), and doing so deliberately then invokes the aforementioned self “gimp” by forcing other variety on yourself. - i’m intrinsically familiar with this because of my “memes” or themed builds where i aim for a very specific thing, like ex XY hardcapped skill or max wps etc, and i do it anyway, but doesn’t change that i’m technically worse off adding a ring with +2 wps over -10% RR 
Variety shouldnt’ be “forced” like that, it should be encouraged because there isn’t a catch all item that’s 9/10 times just gonna be technically better “even if you don’t care” about doing 0.0001 more dmg…
And it’s almost hilarious because of how easy it is to fix by simply removing it, it almost makes it funny that it’s up for that much defending,
Since "if you have the variety"you speak of already; someone wouldn’t care if the RR was removed, meanwhile everyone else would be free from slotting combust band/matriarch/voidheart/haunt ring in their first GT draft (or get it default/“mandatory”/first pick recommended in a forum post)
That’s actually a really good point.
It’s due to the fact you need a lot of skill points in BM to get max damage. Plus a certain Arcanist relic gives a fluff ton of Elemental damage, which makes it best in slot to for the +1 to all Arcanist skills.
Works better with a Tactician and I have two dual pistol builds drafted up for that purpose. But for Melee Battlemages it’s not always the best option.
Might work for a sword and board one though 
Eh, but thing is there’s also a wealth of options for RR sources for Vitality and Acid now that makes single RR mastery combos much more capable of handling highly resistant enemies. Even Fire has some, but outside of Lightning caster builds there’s no accessories that provide the same for lightning ranged builds.
Instead they rely on pushing damage, but that has diminishing returns as resistance to that damage type goes up. Which is why stacking RR sources has ended up so important to the majority of builders.
Will agree with you on viability though Because ultimately it’s down to how the build feels and how well it stays alive and suits your need. Even if it takes 20 minutes to run SR75-76 and still be within the timer :3
Anyhow, whole point of making this thread was to point out the fact there’s not much in the way of options for lighting RR sources compared to other damage types. I didn’t expect it to get hijacked by an anti-RR brigade lawl.
…
Not even coffee is going to make me less grumpy here, so here we go. While Grava is less of a pain that he once was, he still takes ages to kill if you’ve not enough RR to deal with his particular high resistances. But Grava’s not the real threat in Deep SR, it’s Valdaran, those combo of high lightning RR + retaliation aura spewing of lightning orbs can and will kill any build that lacks sufficient defences/survivability or the ability to kill him quickly. Which makes him a problem for any lightning build with only one RR skill. Because aether has options for that which makes Valdaran easier to deal with but there’s nothing for lightning.
But instead of actually taking that into fluffing account and even dealing with the actual specifics and resists you blithely ignore that in favour of “but he’s not a problem for meeeeee”.
[REDACTED SWEARING HERE]
Grab a single RR lighting melee/ranged build, go run Deep SR and see for yourself. Otherwise piss off with the anecdotes that don’t actually concern the specifics here. Because it’s frankly just spam designed to draw attention to you and adds sweet fuck all to the discussion.
And yes, I have builds that eat Valdaran for breakfast that are single RR, but they aren’t fluffing lightning damage based.
Right, coffee time, before I reach heaven through violence.
i’m not sure what single RR mastery combos has to do with no RR combos?
a 0 poison RR class is at a greater disadvantage because murmur has less RR than widow
likewise a 0 vit RR class is at a greater disadvantage because rattosh both has lower RR than widow, while enemies are more resistant than lightning, which then arguably just makes the vit RR rings more “fair” to exist if that’s the case/“more resist enemies warrant RR items” 
and in either case it would still be equally solved like lightning; by shifting it to the RR devo instead of locking them into specific rings 
Well, I did respond before having a coffee lawl.
Anyhow, single RR masteries always have it only slightly easier than masteries with none when it comes to highly resistant enemies. You can carve through everything until you run into that one enemy with high resists. Where as two sources of RR from the chosen classes makes it far easier to reduce an enemy’s resists into the negative.
Only damage type that can side step this is physical since high resists too it aren’t really a thing outside of the deepest of SR levels and so a bit of physical -RR% and armour shred will usually see you kick out a lot of damage. More so if you go with a single source of mastery provided -RR%
Though, I do agree it would be nice if devotions and skills had more -RR% and -RR because it would open up a bit more variety and you wouldn’t always have to prioritise RR rings etc over damage and everything else. I just don’t see Crate dropping rings with RR for GD. They may do it in GD 2, but for the meanwhile rings are a thing.
Also, no sane builder is going to try a zero RR mastery combo for vitality. Maybe for vitality Forcewave it would work, since it’s a ton of damage, but I’m not aware of anything that fully converts the damage to vitality. Which is also why no one’s built a build that does vit Forcewave lawl.
I have lightning builds in SR80+ (even single mastery RR) and he is not such a pain like Moosi for cold builds… Especially with an Arcanist mixed in that has Nullification and Mirror…
I was talking of course about that specific damage type that nemesis are resistant to… I just did not point that out directly…
They did for phys res in a lot of items… And these are just a few rings we are talking about…