No, having 100 % one WPS is nice change for build variety. Just tune the numbers…
What numbers?
Do you propose nerfing all base WPS to make them crappier across the board to justify the existence of 100% WPS possibilities?
It’s far easier (and more reasonable) to return WPS to being a (P)ool of (S)kills.
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What is the difference of having 4 WPS at 25 % and one at 100 %? Otherwise they are fine as is or they are not.
I don´t really care much about debating the topic of WPS… I will let someone else worry about WPS.
Efficiency, opportunity cost, build variety, etc.
Some wps were clearly not made with 100% chance in mind, like Storm Spread and Execution.
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In what sense? I do not get why? Have not played at all with WPS since FoA…
What changes for them from 25 % to 100 %?
Guess you miss all the broken builds with both wps.
These wps were balanced around not proccing every waking second.
If you have gear support with item skill modifiers buffing one specific WPS and you can get said WPS to proc 70-100% of the time… that’s an issue.
300% wd WPS every fourth hit is less scary than a 300% WD WPS every hit you make.
Also makes for a silly precedence where your every auto attack can reliably apply two separate constellation procs.
Builds have always had the ability to get 100% WPS.
This was in the form of simply obtaining enough 20-30% chance WPS to add up to 100%.
The only difference between that and a single WPS reaching 100% is this single WPS is overtuned in its numbers.
If you have 4 different 25% chance WPS that each deal 150% WD or you have 1 singular 100% WPS that deals 150% WD the end result is the same. You’re doing a 150% WD WPS on every strike.
Hence why it’s all about tuning numbers.
If the case is a WPS is “Balanced around not proccing every waking second” then it means that the WPS is an outlier and is notably stronger than other WPS that would otherwise be used to create a 100% WPS scenario.
The problem is not in how frequently a singular WPS occurs, but in its actual values when it does trigger.
Of course, there’s the secondary issues in regards to cost - For example picking multiple masteries with WPS to get enough to reach 100% proc chance as well as investing skill points to level these up to not only get proc chance but also buff their damage compared to just using a single WPS and having gear pump up its proc chance.
But those issues are rife among many skills, with some being very cost efficient and others being incredibly hungry (For example; Fire Strike costs 51 points to max out its damage. While Onslaught only requires 40 and can even forgo many points in Endless Rage due to its main benefit, the extra Onslaught stacks, often being unneccessary)
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The numbers are tuned around not having 100% chance to proc. What causes these wps to break is precisely because they can reach 100% chance.
People here already said this several times here, that’s the core issue with how broken Execution and specially Storm Spread builds are.
It’s much easier to tune down the wps chance than it is to have to tune down damage numbers.
And it was much more balanced like this.
The numbers are clearly making these WPS far stronger than the others.
It’s just made more clear when they get used more frequently.
It’s literally the exact same. You just change the number to one that is lower.
The balance was exactly the same. These WPS were way stronger than the rest.
It just manifested in less obvious ways by the nature of having to be combined with a bunch of far weaker WPS.
Quite literally, I recall builds from years ago revolving around Upheaval where the overall premise was “Don’t take other WPS because if you go over 100% WPS you reduce the frequency of Upheaval”
These WPS have always been overtuned in their numbers. Being more frequent is simply making it more apparent.
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Late stage pre FOA Upheaval was more like ‘don’t take any WPS’ because Upheaval can only proc off standard attacks. Not sure why we rewrite history now.
Also you doing bazillion damage every third attack versus you doing bazillion damage every attack is not simply making it apparent that these WPS have been overtuned for years. They were specifically balanced around being hidden behind a layer of RNG.
I’m going off what I recall from many years ago (Way earlier than “Late stage pre-FoA”)
I distinctly remember reading that specific line of not taking WPS because of the way going above 100% proc chance functioned (Which gave me the insight about how more than 100% proc chance actually functioned)
Balanced as an overall build? Yes.
Balanced as an individual WPS? Not even close.
That’s the crux of this whole thing.
When people cram together a bunch of regular WPS to get 100% proc chance, that’s fine because these WPS are balanced and not providing ridiculous outputs.
But when people get 100% proc chance on a WPS that is absurdly powerful, then it’s a problem because the WPS is too strong.
100% proc chance in of itself, is not a problem. As we’ve seen with the multi-WPS builds obtaining that.
Which is the point.
100% proc chance on a single WPS can be fine, if its numbers aren’t overtuned.
The current WPS that are reaching 100% proc chance are being busted because their numbers are overtuned.
Thus the actions to take are:
- Remove the ability to get 100% proc chance on these WPS. They will still be way better than other WPS but they are mitigated overall by their inconsistency.
- Tone down their numbers so that they aren’t better than the average WPS when at 100% proc chance.
Interestingly, you could do this by way of similar mechanics to how CD skills such as Forcewave/Phantasmal Blades become spammables.
If you make part of the process for making these WPS get 100% proc chance that their values are diminished to the point where they’re simply an average WPS, then you get the best of both worlds. If you leave the proc rate on the skill low it gets to do absurd damage just infrequently, but if you want to use it as a 100% proc skill then its damage becomes reduced but it happens consistently (Which can be useful if it has an innate effect that happens to be nice to have, such as 100% passthrough or AoE which are not always found on multiple WPS that make up a 100% proc chance build)
What are you even talking about? Obviously builds could get to 100% wps, I dare say majority of auto attack builds got there - unless you were playing a class combination that literally couldn’t. That’s not debatable, that’s just how Grim Dawn works. That’s why we got plethora of item/component based wps. To fill the pool up.
Crux of the discussion here is that now you can fill the entire wps pool (or most of it) with one super buffed proc. That’s the problematic part. Not Execution/Upheaval/Avalanche alone doing bazillion damage.
i don’t know how you can keep missing both the basic and obvious point
100% proc chance on a single wps is busted not because the wps is busted; but because it’s scaled based on not being 100%
“this was true before foa too for all wps” - including upheaval.
If you nerf the base value of the wps; you hamper any build that dont get 100% wps chance on that single wps, because it’s balanced around 1/3 rng from having a multi Pool
so yes, it’s obviously it’s the proc chance that’s the issue, not the base scaling; because not all builds get 100% proc chance but still need XY wps to fill a pool/use modifier etc.
Zantai even said the game wasn’t balanced around cherrypicked ascendant affixes/ascendant affix rng itself was meant to be a hurdle, but then getting 100% solo proc on certain blows them when possible
^If you nerf the base dmg of a wps to combat the outlier stacking, you hurt all the wps build using it, so nerfing the outlier/stacking % issue only impacts the outlier % stacking, not dmg…
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It’s not, it’s really not.
And like Gnomish said, nerfing numbers means very likely the nerf of builds that don’t have 100% chance to a single wps. Far easier to nerf wps chance when wps numbers are already more or less balanced.
Regardless of what the balancing philosophy was before, it is possible to rebalance the game around 100% chance for one WPS.
If every WPS would inflicts the same amount of dmg then it would not matter if you get 100% WPS A or 50/50% WPS AB or 33/33/33% WPS ABC
The only imbalance then comes from not having to invest skillpoints in those other WPS skills, however this can be mitigated by requiring to use all ascended affix ‘slots’ to get to 100%.
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Anything can be rebalanced, what matters is how much is it required. And in this case, nerfing wps chance is far easier and more healthy.
Making everything uniform is an easy way to balance the fun out of the game.
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I strongly disagree the 100% WPS system is much more fun and much more interesting then what it was before.
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