Weapon Pool Skills (WPS) and Total Damage Modified (TDM)

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

some wps hits twice, some have aoe, some are high ST dmg, etc
You can’t equate aoe and st dmg, you have dps difference on multi hit vs single hit
Smite alone has 4 difference configuration possibilities, and can’t deal the same dmg on all 4, regardless if it’s 30% 50% or 100% chance, - so if your nerf its base dmg value based on a 100% chance on 1 of those configs… that wps dmg diff is wasted on the others

And the whole idea with ascendant affix being you couldnt’ guarantee getting XY wps %

*there is nothing wrong with being able to get 100% wps, but it shouldn’t be on ascendant affixes, but target items that can then be dmg controlled specifically for the 100% allowed on a case by case basis
**or no nerfs should happen at all based on ascendant affixes/ascendant cherrypicking shouldn’t be an “OP” or balance consideration then

[gargabolo]

@Gnomish_Inquisition

You can’t equate aoe and st dmg, you have dps difference on multi hit vs single hit

Yes but such differences exist between any two main dmg skills in the game and for those we can also accept keeping it within certain limits.

@Gnomish_Inquisition

but it shouldn’t be on ascendant affixes, but target items

I disagree, then likely my favourite 100% WPS build will land on some weird melee aether build instead of having the flexibility we have now.

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

@gargabolo

Yes but such differences exist between any two main dmg skills in the game and for those we can also accept keeping it within certain limits.

not to the same degree, because there you can compare 1 specific skill in its entire setup to a different skill, ie blitz v forcewave
Not in a single skill in the “same” build that interacts difference just based on weapon config/non specific build outfit.
That’s why 2h blade arc has 1xy itemization modifiers “set” and 1h has different.
It’s not the base skill’s scaling that’s dealt with there, it’s the specific build.
WPS allows you to ignore that and get 100% on any config, but they cant’ then be target handled to reduce the outlier, because its bse dmg directly affects the 3 other configs with the same getup.
^and you can’t very well slap a “-15% tdm to smite” on every single shield and pistol to curb it specifically, but you can gate off 100% wps to select options.

That’s also exactly how it was handled before, eg multi target DAR modifiers on select items to deliberately conflict with certain stuff.

[gargabolo]

@Gnomish_Inquisition

^and you can’t very well slap a “-15% tdm to smite” on every single shield and pistol to curb it specifically

Actually with ascended affixes you can do exactly that, if you can roll +20% chance to be used on a shield, that affix can be changed to +20% chance AND -2% TDM

[Tarille]

@Gnomish_Inquisition

100% proc chance on a single wps is busted not because the wps is busted; but because it’s scaled based on not being 100%

That quite literally is showing that the WPS is busted. Or at the very least, significantly more powerful than other WPS.

If this individual WPS wasn’t significantly more powerful than other WPS then it wouldn’t be broken when reaching 100% proc rate like a build using multiple WPS gets.

ALL WPS are “Balanced around not being 100% proc chance” that’s why they have proc chances. That’s why before FoA you had to use multiple WPS to reach 100% proc chance.

The issue here is that specific WPS are significantly more powerful than others.

Again, if this wasn’t an issue, then 100% proc chance on it would be no different to the multi-WPS builds.

Or other WPS that aren’t as powerful would have significantly higher base proc chances.

@Gnomish_Inquisition

If you nerf the base value of the wps; you hamper any build that dont get 100% wps chance on that single wps, because it’s balanced around 1/3 rng from having a multi Pool

I don’t think I ever said anything to allude to the opposite.

Again, ALL WPS are on the same balance. That’s why they all have the same proc chance.

Using that as an argument as to why some of them should be way more powerful that the rest is moot when by default, every WPS is, on its own, a % chance to activate (Typically being 12-30%)

Using “Proc chance” as an argument for why specific WPS should be more powerful should also come with the argument that other WPS that aren’t as busted as these specific ones should either have their values or proc chances increased.

Which will also have knock on effects to various builds.

Either you run into the same power problem because people run around with 100% proc chance on busted WPS (Only, using the multi-WPS builds instead of single WPS),

Or you change how 100% proc chance builds actually use points because they get more proc chance from specific WPS (Meaning you get less overall RNG in the 100% proc chance lottery) which can also lead to effects in regards to multi-WPS builds having worse odds to use their good WPS due to how >100% chance functions.

@Norzan

It’s not, it’s really not.

It really is. Changing numbers is the same regardless of where the number is located.

The impact of changing these different numbers is different. But the actual act of changing them isn’t.

[_maverick]

@gargabolo

I strongly disagree the 100% WPS system is much more fun and much more interesting then what it was before.

I agree. It seems more interesting and versatile. Probably just some damage numbers need tweaking.

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

they are not “more powerful”, they work differently
Why do you think spam DB or Spam aegis gets a tdm penalty, or other ST skills or certain AoE skills gets XY detractor over another “similar” effect
It matters as a whole
So no, execution isn’t busted by its own dmg scaling, not when its only ever busted on 100% proc… - it’s a ST attack scaled based on that, just like other skills are.
Difference is those other skills don’t freely get to run wild, and gets target addressed when they can be altered, like similar spam nukes having either outright dmg penalties, or gated off to specific slots/items or conflicting configs.
Same for AoE wps etc

and you can’t address that modification difference as baseline, that’s why every other single skill gets target modifiers. And ascendant affixes prevents that level of control/build targeting (unless you slap -tdm on wps increase affix as a combo pack)

[Norzan]

@Tarille

It really is.

In this case, it’s not. There are more than numbers to account for if you want to rebalance for wps to have 100% chance.

[Tarille]

@Gnomish_Inquisition

they are not “more powerful”, they work differently

Quite literally, they are.

If 100% proc chance on WPS isn’t broken, but these specific ones are then it’s because they’re more powerful than a collection of other WPS.

Either because their specific mechanics are broken, or because their numbers are overtuned.

@Norzan

In this case, it’s not. There are more than numbers to account for if you want to rebalance for wps to have 100% chance.

Okay… You change WD% and… Flat damage?

Boy, so much numbers…

Far more numbers than adjusting item modifier and ascended affix proc chances…

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

“why do you think XY other skills gets modified when its base interactions gets stepped outside” - it’s not because the base skill is busted, no one has ever argued that aegis or doom bolt etc is busted - because they get specific modifiers to deal with its alterations
WPS does not, it just gets let run wild outside its base scaling…

@Tarille

You change WD% and… Flat damage?

and gimp every build using said wps now based on a single 100% outlier
-instead of just targeting the outlier specifically when at 100% “like every other skill ever has”

[Tarille]

@Gnomish_Inquisition

“why do you think XY other skills gets modified when its base interactions gets stepped outside” - it’s not because the base skill is busted, no one has ever argued that aegis or doom bolt etc is busted - because they get specific modifiers to deal with its alterations

So now we’re shifting the goalpost?

These specific WPS are more powerful than average WPS. This is a fact.

If this was not the case, then all 100% proc chance WPS based builds would be as powerful as these singular WPS builds.

Forcewave being neutered to become spammable isn’t a good comparison. Since there is and never has been a case where you had a enough CD skills to fire off at the same speed as a spammable, whereby in such a case spammable Forcewave can get away with being unchanged because it’s no more damaging than the rest.

The closest thing has been CDR builds but even then they don’t come close to the speed at which as spammable with 200% AS/CS (These have been frequently nerfed too)

WPS have always been able to get 100% proc chance. It’s only becoming a problem now with singular WPS with 100% proc chance because this singular skill is significantly more powerful than the rest.

It’s not because of proc rate. Since we’ve had 100% proc rate on WPS for literally the entire game. It’s because of the power of the WPS that is making up the 100% proc rate (Which in the case of single skill WPS builds is entirely on that one singular WPS)

@Gnomish_Inquisition

and gimp every build using said wps now based on a single 100% outlier
-instead of just targeting the outlier specifically when at 100% “like every other skill ever has”

If only I pointed out the thing you are starting to claim, in the very post you initially started responding to me in regards to this very topic…

@Tarille

Interestingly, you could do this by way of similar mechanics to how CD skills such as Forcewave/Phantasmal Blades become spammables.

If you make part of the process for making these WPS get 100% proc chance that their values are diminished to the point where they’re simply an average WPS, then you get the best of both worlds. If you leave the proc rate on the skill low it gets to do absurd damage just infrequently, but if you want to use it as a 100% proc skill then its damage becomes reduced but it happens consistently (Which can be useful if it has an innate effect that happens to be nice to have, such as 100% passthrough or AoE which are not always found on multiple WPS that make up a 100% proc chance build)

[_maverick]

@Tarille

These specific WPS are more powerful than average WPS. This is a fact.

If this was not the case, then all 100% proc chance WPS based builds would be as powerful as these singular WPS builds.

This one is so obvious… The debate is pointless after it…

@Tarille

WPS have always been able to get 100% proc chance. It’s only becoming a problem now with singular WPS with 100% proc chance because this singular skill is significantly more powerful than the rest.

Yep. Obvious again…

WPS were never properly balanced one agaist the other… And this is the result at 100 %… Some were just better than others. And the WPS pool of many just hid it effectively. With 100 % it is fully in the open…

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

@Tarille

These specific WPS are more powerful than average WPS. This is a fact.

there are posted a few so far, i guarantee you there will come more…
because storm spread or execution is not the only one that scale at 100% contra other interactions…

@Tarille

If this was not the case, then all 100% proc chance WPS based builds would be as powerful as these singular WPS builds.

you mean in a game where ST dmg is high value, thus other skills with high st value gets modified when that value interaction changes? eg spam nukes? “that goalpost shift” - which is just the same mechanic comparison interaction contrast…

@Tarille

WPS have always been able to get 100% proc chance. It’s only becoming a problem now with singular WPS with 100% proc chance because this singular skill is significantly more powerful than the rest.

you’re again mistaking the big difference between a single wps getting 100% chance vs combined pool of 100%
eg nuke scaling at 1 aps vs 4 aps… “similar to other nuke interactions”, be it nado/db etc etc
which all gets target altered when that aps changes despite baseline being fine…

@Tarille

If only I pointed out the thing you are starting to claim

if only a specific thing wasn’t specifically addressed because someone specifically kept going back to base value nerfs
→

@Gnomish_Inquisition

control/build targeting (unless you slap -tdm on wps increase affix as a combo pack)

it’s not the base value that’s the issue, it’s that it gets let run wild without modification, and that modification doesnt’ exist/can’t exist unless it exists on the thing letting them run wild…

[_maverick]

@Gnomish_Inquisition

you’re again mistaking the big difference between a single wps getting 100% chance vs combined pool of 100%
eg nuke scaling at 1 aps vs 4 aps… “similar to other nuke interactions”, be it nado/db etc etc
which all gets target altered when that aps changes despite baseline being fine…

If they were balanced it does not matter if we have 4 with 25 % or one with 100 %. But they were just never balanced…

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

yes it matters, because aoe, st, multi hit etc has always been scaled differently, literally just like every other skill in the game; and that’s why every other skill gets target modified when those baselines changes, like with spam that increases aps to 4 from 1 (or 2)…
“these skills do not”, they just got freebie aps increase with 0 specific build target modifications
And the repeated argument was to handle it baseline, which is obv not the issue, but the aps increase versions, ie handle it on the aps increase itself “just like any other skill” eg spam conduits -tdm etc obvious comparisons

[Tarille]

@Gnomish_Inquisition

you mean in a game where ST dmg is high value, thus other skills with high st value gets modified when that value interaction changes? eg spam nukes? “that goalpost shift” - which is just the same mechanic comparison interaction contrast…

I literally don’t understand what point you’re trying to make here.

WPS builds have frequently been using ST WPS. Since many WPS are single target unless using a ranged weapon.

Being single target has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion of using a single (As in lone, as in the only one) WPS compared to multiple (As in, more than one, as in several) WPS.

This isn’t “Single target vs AoE” this is one WPS scaling up to 100% proc chance vs several WPS with a combined proc chance of 100%.

@Gnomish_Inquisition

you’re again mistaking the big difference between a single wps getting 100% chance vs combined pool of 100%
eg nuke scaling at 1 aps vs 4 aps… “similar to other nuke interactions”, be it nado/db etc etc
which all gets target altered when that aps changes despite baseline being fine…

There is no difference.

A single skill acquiring 100% proc chance and several skills combining to 100% proc chance means you’re proccing on the same number of attacks and the same frequency.

The only difference is the damage that is being done. Which is entirely down to that single skill being more powerful than the multiple others.

@Gnomish_Inquisition

if only a specific thing wasn’t specifically addressed because someone specifically kept going back to base value nerfs

Uhh… Since when did I keep going back to base value nerfs?

Literally the thing that I mentioned, that I re-pointed out, was putting the nerf onto the modifiers that increased the proc chance.

I never once in this entire thread have actually mentioned base value nerfs.

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

@Tarille

WPS builds have frequently been using ST WPS. Since many WPS are single target unless using a ranged weapon.

execution is scaled differently from shears because aoe vs ST
“just like every other skill”
Storm Spread is a pseudo aoe skill scaled with the factor potential you can shotgun, contra bursting round that is scaled around fixed aoe
Just like every other skill in the game, be it FW/PS/Nado/DB/SJ etc get their factors taken in, and notoriously why certain pure aoe skills never got to get high dmg because 10m screen dmg whatever like judgement.

That’s why when you suddenly because to spam SJ, you get a tdm penalty, because that shotgun potential changes drastically. Stormspread gets none
SJ doesn’t need a baseline nerf because it has the random potential to go from 1 attack per 3sec to 4aps; it gets a target reduction when that aps change happens
Storm Spread does not, meanwhile it’s dmg is perfectly non busted fine with its base scaling on the 1/3 consideration; but it does not get any target reduction when that consideration changes to 4aps
That’s why your whole baseline scaling argument has been wrong from the start… because things can be fine base scaled with its existing consideration, and isn’t then busted from that base interaction, but because it’s no longer having the base interaction without the same modifications…
^and if you then do that, you screw up every storm spread without 100% wps…, just like you screw every SJ build if you nerfed its base dmg to ignore target penalty for spam change

@Tarille

A single skill acquiring 100% proc chance and several skills combining to 100% proc chance means you’re proccing on the same number of attacks and the same frequency.

you are not and it’s amazing it’s not obvious
you’re doing a high st hit 1/4 attacks with a lesser scaled aoe attack the other times…
you’re changing that 3 lesser aoes, to 4 100% full ST nukes, without compensating for the nuke change “unlike every other skill in the game we handle”

@Tarille

Since when did I keep going back to base value nerfs?

for real? did we actually hallucinate you saying it was a base dmg issue on specific and have been arguing over nothing?

[_maverick]

@Gnomish_Inquisition

That’s why when you suddenly because to spam SJ, you get a tdm penalty, because that shotgun potential changes drastically. Stormspread gets none
SJ doesn’t need a baseline nerf because it has the random potential to go from 1 attack per 3sec to 4aps; it gets a target reduction when that aps change happens
Storm Spread does not, meanwhile it’s dmg is perfectly non busted fine with its base scaling on the 1/3 consideration; but it does not get any target reduction when that consideration changes to 4aps
That’s why your whole baseline scaling argument has been wrong from the start… because things can be fine base scaled with its existing consideration, and isn’t then busted from that base interaction, but because it’s no longer having the base interaction without the same modifications…
^and if you then do that, you screw up every storm spread without 100% wps…, just like you screw every SJ build if you nerfed its base dmg to ignore target penalty for spam change

You are missing the point. It would be true if you had one WPS at 25 % and nothing more and scaled it up to 100 % that would be the equivalent of taking Stun Jacks from cooldown to spam.

But we have already the ability to get many WPS and combine them to 100 %.

You have an error in your logic. And thus you are wrong.

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

@_maverick

But we have already the ability to get many WPS and combine them to 100 %.

You have an error in your logic. And thus you are wrong.

those wps don’t behave the same, so no
It’s like you’re weaving shadow strike with sj and nado and FW, but you’re changing it to only spamming SJ or SS "at will, then without any other factors applied.
Meanwhile if you did that with either of the above, there is immediate interaction applied, ie direct tdm penalty because the spam consideration changed…

you guys seem to think wps act the same, they do not, we have ST and aoe and multi hit wps, just like with regular skills, and they are baseline scaled with that in mind. And that’s why other skills can’t get a spam factor change without additional compensation like direct tdm penalty
“now wps can”, it’s no different than if ascension bonus had SJ cdr without penalty/letting you bypass the transmuter…

[_maverick]

@Gnomish_Inquisition

those wps don’t behave the same, so no

Exactly. /10char