then why are you acting like it’s a base line issue, and not a spam factor issue 
- storm spread is literally the same mechanic as SJ, yet you can’t see the connection and difference how it’s handled there and how it’s a change based solely on aps difference…
baseline SJ is not busted; because it’s based on not having 4aps… “so when it gets 4aps, it changes”
If they do not behave similarly damagewise, then they are not balaced and thus it is a baseline issue.
I am not interested in repeating more of the said. We already said what we wanted to say.
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“look at what happens with SJ when you changes the APS” - now look at stormspread; do you see any glaring omissions on the ascendant affixes now to still maintain the 1:1 comparison ratio, because they were baseline comparable/“fine” before… - for a reason
it’s an aps issue, not a baseline skill issue…
Well, Gnomish is right.
I wonder, though, how a nerf to %WPS chance ascended affixes would be received by people who are using them in large numbers. Less well than almost any other nerf ever, is my guess.
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Nerf or straight up removal/rework. FoA already introduced a lot of item support for WPS % manipulation.
No he is not, he simply keeps arguing from the position that certain numbers in the game are rigid and cannot be changed while others are flexible like the chance to be used.
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Any number can be changed, obviously. He’s right as to which should be changed.
Edit:
To expand a bit, what I mean is that making all WPS equal in strength will not help matters as it will just make the % WPS chance affix useless. Who cares about +5% Execution if WPS are all as good as each other?
A better course is to keep the imbalance between WPS skills so that there is some excitement in getting +chance. Then there is the question of where that modifier should come from. My view is that Gnomish is right that it should be controlled in scope and only available on skill modifiers on items.
But … I think (not certain) that Zantai has already said, in a different thread, that he doesn’t see any problem with 100% WPS chance. And obviously he knows the numbers better than anyone. So this may all be academic.
and that’s kinda the (desperate) hope, that build balancing or nerfs doesn’t happen based on affix stacking. Which might initially been very well and good, until players started advocating for it on their own, and that might change the original stance more/slightly.
literally not, i’m arguing people are looking at the wrong numbers, ie baseline function vs unmodified numbers allowed to run wild. I even made a direct comparison example eg stun jacks and storm spread which is literally the same functional effect/mechanic; and only one of those gets compensated when APS is allowed to change.
In that example you are just doing it again, you first assume that all Stun Jack balance stays the same as it (which btw means more dmg and way more projectiles in the endgame than storm spread), then you also assume that it is going to have cdr affixes that will reduce it all to zero without penalties to compensate.
same projectiles baseline even, except SJ actually requires you to hardcap it to get it baseline, SP doesn’t… (SP tooltip misleads you, it always double regardless if 1h or 2h or dualwield) - it’s the same mechanic interaction ie shotgun scaling vs dmg dip aoe spread etc etc factor
again, literally the opposite; look what happens when we get the APS change - it’s already applied…
this is what happens to any x/slow aps skill with a baseline value based on that original aps, when that aps gets changed to 4 - except storm spread etc…
stormpread baseline is working fine and based of its pre-existing cap, that cap “unlike others” get to be changed, without compensation, uniquely; every other skill that gets to be/changed to spammed gets target modified as compensation… (without handling the it baseline but target interaction to the spam variants)
I love this change as it allows more build variety. For example, I’m currently finishing up a cold single target assassin Reaver using Bloodmane set. You can get 100% WPS with Bloodfangs, Add a Notch, Execution (and some ascendency). It’s pretty cool to be able to manipulate WPS like this.
disagree heavily on this.
The reasoning for going heavy into 1 WPS vs spreading into multiple wps is a combination of gear investment, build choice, and some additional factor like meme/specific build quirks that you’re trying to go for.
rebalancing the numbers of storm spread/execution/whichever wps (as well as buffing other wps to be more in line overall) isnt going to nullify the fact that having a guy who just blast shotgun rounds per shot is cool, and allows for storm spread centric building like how people can build around say, primal strike or any other attack moves.
100% wps chance is one of the few things that I feel that comes out of FOA that I enjoy tremendously (and a lot which I did not). I would rather see the wps that are overperforming nerfed and the wps that are underperforming buffed, than to see a literal move back to the pre-foa days.
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This assumption is fundamentally wrong imo, because for a lot of stuff like SJ or Primal Strike (cd vs non-cd), the difference between the cd version vs the non cd version is that on the CD version (the restricted build), the timing between is filled in with fillers that cannot reach the kind of damage output that cooldown SJ/PS does due to the limitation of skill points, and how much points is needed to be added into SJ/PS tree, and how many points is required to be added into a non-cd alternative to allow for the same kind of damage output (which simply speaking, isnt generally possible).
For the case of WPS, the skill point cost of both storm spread, or alternative WPS are relatively minimal (not uncommon to see wps being in the range of level 7-10 instead of all maxed if there’s higher priorities), not to mention that technically all WPS can be built into higher %, or towards 100%. The comparison of cooldown skill → needs lower damage when cooldown is removed via 1 node hence wps 100% also needing to lower damage when it goes to 100% is flawed because it ultimately ignores the opportunity costs of the to get into the alternatives, and also straight up ignore the cost of getting the wps to 100% (about anywhere from 8-11 ascended prefix slots).
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“ignoring that changing the aps still results in direct dmg penalty regardless”, fillers which is unrelated to overall build; 1:1 skill in context, similarly like fillers on unmodified CD skills don’t get such considerations as long as they stay in line nor did we bump filler wps to compensate for dragging down XY dmg, we utilized fillers differently, like aoe clear.
It’s just an argument in favour of nerfing wps “low cost”
if it wasn’t for
i do not
the problem is others are when voluntarily asking for nerfs, or attributing baseline issues with something not meant to be out of aps proportions while being unrestricted (assuming ascendant affix stacking will get deemed not restricted property enough that is)
That is why that APS context matters and is proportional to other skills, because it’s how the entire game has always been handled. APS has always been controlled on any skill, with CDR available indirectly or directly or trigger count (+targets etc).
But it depends whether it gets taken serious and results in nerfs, (and that likelihood will only increase the more players voluntarily ask for it)
… I am done, This is not the first time you decided to literally just… cherry pick some points in the argument to distort an argument.
i “cherrypicked” the part that was relevant, since as i say in the beginning, you’re ignoring and drawing unrelated parallels that has no bearing here… - if anything i’m agreeing with the cost pov
People argue about build variety, which i am all for that, and if you go back in time you’ll see I said multiple times that one of the strong aspect of Grim Dawn is build diversity.
That being said, I like the identity of each WPS.
I personnaly didn’t see 100% execution builds yet though but i have seen 100% Upheaval (and it’s seems strong with Jarldin set + Voldrak weapon, not sure if it’s OP though)… We also saw the OP Gloom set as reaver with 100% avalanche.
But if it’s possible how do you balance that ?
Do you lower execution damage % but then it lose it’s identity ?
For exemple if you have one build that can go 100% chance for Execution (or high number), the damage will sky rocket for single target. What do you really lose by forcusing heavinly on single target ? The argument that you won’t have AOE isn’t fully true.
What about cold firestrike saboteur, what about the dranghoul blade pierce reaver, are you gonna get good AOE and crazy single target from high % chance for Execution ? … in fact what about any + targets maximum on items for any Auto Attack skills ? Are you gonna remove that from the game because it makes you focus more on single target WPS while not giving up AOE ? Also the other problem from focusing on one WPS is you suddently get way more skill points to max the other skills you wouldn’t be able to max otherwise (because you won’t go for any other WPS).
All in all it seems like a mess to balance, I could be wrong but it look like a mess and a lot of time to balance.
I would rather have a max/cap % chance to each WPS.
In the end, we will know soon how it will be done in septembre (most likely).
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I can see that in the case of Storm Spread, which is visually distinctive and a cool effect. A lot of WPS, however, are not visually spectacular. They are only differentiated by how much DPS they do to how many targets.
I am also really enjoying +WPS chance as a feature, but I am thinking of it more from the perspective of trying to create builds with 2 WPS - single and multi-target - and working towards gear that will allow me to eliminate weaker fillers. If they were all equally powerful there would be no point in that.
Does it necessarily need to be ‘balanced’? You’re going into a whole load of hypotheticals and I don’t really see the reason.
If people only want to play the most busted stuff then ok, good for them. There’s going to be busted stuff no matter what.
The WPS chance mods are cool precisely because they strengthen identity. It’s fun to consider a toon that can just throw avalanches at everyone, and a lot of weird WPS builds will require ascendencies which are a real grind. If someone wants to put in 100s of hours to get a bunch of %WPS mods, I say let them eat cake.
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I don’t go into hypotheticals, I literaly explained the reasons :
It’s not hypothetical that you can mix +targets on gear to an auto attack and focus on single target WPS,
It’s not hypothetical that you can have very high % chance to execution
It’s not Hypothetical that you get more skill points for focusing on one or two WPS
It dosen’t strenghten the identity of what the WPS does if you have to reduce it’s damage to allow it to be at 100%. It might give some flavor to a build but it doesn’t strenghen the identity of the WPS itselft, it will weaken it by reducing it’s damage for the sake of balance.
It needs to be balanced and it will.
OP builds in the past never stayed OP for too long.
It might not be balanced the way that you want or the way that I want but it will be balanced in some way.
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