why are we punished for resetting builds?

JTDSR, why don’t you just download GD Stash and use one of the various methods found in that tool to manage your Attribute, Skill and Devotion allocations?

If your efforts are in the name of theory crafting, however you are being prohibited by certain factors, then remove those factors.

GD Stash is an incredibly useful tool that offers users multiple functions - one of which being the editing of character information.

I think you may find it to your benefit.


Why are people taking this personal? It’s a video game for fuck sakes. Some of you act like Crate were sitting in a darkened room rubbing their hands together and laughing maniacally as they devise ways to screw over individual fans of their game.

People really need to get over themselves and realize that developers are not out to get them.

This whole “play the game the way it was meant to be played” statement is comical. There are many different skills one can focus on within a dual class setup. You’re darn right I can play around with different skills without it being deemed “OCD”. It is what makes these games fun to me, the ability to have fun playing around with different combinations, without conforming to one specific build for a blademaster, one build for a warder, etc. As I had stated a couple of times before, if I do not want to part with the iron bits, and start fresh with a new idea i mind, it is nothing to bring a nw toon back to 85 in a couple of days.

Your point? OBVIOUSLY there are a lot skills to focus on but if you’re working on a particular build then the number of viable alternatives starts to drop dramatically. If you HAVE to test each and every skill by respeccing EVERYTHING, EVERY TIME then that’s EXACTLY the type of OCD that rising respec costs was meant to discourage.

If you want to play that way, then get the tools/learn whatever method you need to help you play that way. Forcing OTHERS to conform to how YOU think the game is meant to be played (ie, where skill decisions don’t really matter since you respecs are dirt cheap) is what’s actually comical, because there’s a TON of ways to tackle rising respec costs and[b] no one really cares about whatever method you ultimately decide to use[/b].

Even the devs are fine with people playing the game by their own rules (hence the free editor). Hell, you DON’T have to break ANY rule to circumvent rising respec costs if you do your research or study how the game handles save files.
So why are you forcing YOUR opinions on others?

I still think it’s theory crafting when you either try to optimize or try something different. I mean obviously there is this part when you gonna have to try it in combat, but to get to that point you needed to do some theory crafting.

It doesn’t need to be a new character to be called theory crafting!

And tell me where I am forcing my opinion on others? By saying a potion might be cool? LOL.

Go find a build thread I have posted in. This is a community that thrives on user input, and it works fabulously. The social aspect to build creating is one of the most fun parts of this game. Where ANYWHERE in this thread do you see me telling others to conform to my playstyles? I see plenty of comprehensive builds posted that will crash and burn well before they even get to endgame. I make nary a comment, nor tell them to pursue a different path. They took the time out to devise something that may or may not help others. They also very often get constructive criticism as to why it may or may not work, and how they can tweak it. That is what make a community like this special. The ability to teach, but also to learn at the same time.

It is time to get off your soapbox, and finally realize that I have no qualms with the system as it is. If I had, you would have seen a post from me long ago. I simply said, and let us try to be as clear as possible, that a tonic would be cool, especially if it were absolutely rare, as it would be a highly sought after item, that could be used for bartering. I am all about the barter/sell market in any ARPG or MMO game, it is what I thrive on.

I personally do not prefer to use any third party programs. I do not have any issue with those who do. Early on, when the game first started, I started downloading save game ( ahem, my research was done long ago on how to enhance my game :wink: ) and after having every piece of gear/equipment at my disposal, the game got boring and I quit. there was nothing left to aim for. This time around, I will not do that. I enjoy the leveling process, and taking 3 days out to make another one doesn’t bother me. It also gives you an opportunity to learn the play style along the way until you get to nemesis farming.

Your OCD theory holds zero weight. Some time back for example, they changed Calidor’s Tempest. They made it more viable as you probably well know. I just happened to have a Sorceror I wanted to try it on. He was dual wield pistols. He was also a 2H melee Sorc. Now, I respecced him to the Calidor’s build, which required a full revamp of skills and devotions. I chose that route, decided too many points were pumped into Spirit, and then rerolled him again. You can see how one’s respec cost can rise quickly. Imagine if then, Calidor’s received a minor nerf, which threw off the synergy between it and another skill chain you no longer wanted to use, there goes another 20-30 respec points.This was done over a course of 6 months, and I had sold several highly sought after legendaries for iron bits, some for 1-2 million apiece to build up bank to cover the costs.

I digress however, I doubt you are really wanting to debate a point, it seems you are looking to simply disagree for the sake of it. I have made my point clearly, go look at some of the larger theory crafting threads, especially the blademaster thread, and you can see how different points of view might cause one to continually change/tweak their builds, altering their initial vision.

I once invested in a mastery two more points of what i really planned to. It was a “tecnical accident”, as that mouse was possessed (sometime it was clicking on its own). At the time would have been nice to have a way to revert the error (GD Stash was unknown to me), and I still think an official, maybe difficult to obtain, item/potion to do this would be cool indeed. Only my opinion, of course…

Who took it personal? The OP made a statement, and then punctuated it with the fact that he thinks it is a great game. No one else beyond that as far as I can see. You might want to follow your own advice.

Oh for fuck’s sake, let us be crystal clear. The theory craft portion comes in the form of a piece of paper, and figuring out totals, versus enemy defense numbers, etc. Today, I wanted to try changing my Stormheart Sabo a bit. I took a total of 10 points out of other skills, and put them into Thermite Mines for some resistance reduction. I also took 5 points out of Tree of Life and put them into Solael’s Witchblade. Over the course of 30 or so trial runs, I found that killing speed on Fabius was not influenced drastically enough to warrant some of the bonuses I lost, so I put the points back where they were. That is a total of 20 skill points respecced in one trial. Over the course of a characters lifespan, through several dozen patches, and changing the focus of the entire build itself ( not just the minor intricacies ) this can add up. This character did not even start out as a Stormheart DW Sabo, keep in mind. I also change my builds entirely during the leveling process to choose the most expeditious route to 85, which can also add many respec points along the way.

Sure, you’re “fine” with the game as is. Yeah, respec potions would be “cool” when you can just backup save games, or use an editor, or download a blank character, or even set up your OWN blank character…
But fuck it. You would rather respec OVER AND OVER again and do something like run 30 freaking trial runs and then RESPEC AGAIN.
If that doesn’t qualify as OCD-level gaming, I don’t know what does.

Oh, and you’re (passive aggressively) arguing that this should BE NORMAL.
Shizo much?
Seriously, if you want to play the game by your own rules just use ANY of the methods ALREADY AVAILABLE to help you circumvent rising respec costs.
What makes this thread even more ridiculous is that the most basic method simply involves an ALT-TAB, a ctrl-C+ctrl-V and clicking some folders on Windows Explorer.

He was more referring to the OP’s title, really. And I agree. Everytime I see someone use the term “punish” in relation to games and developers it tends to set me off a little too.

It’s a childish and ridiculous term that has no place in gaming and the people who use it clearly don’t see the hilarity that I do in its usage, which implies developers scheming in the background and plotting and conspiring to do all this so-called “punishing” out of imagined spite. You naughty little kids you. Gunna get what you deserve.

Can’t follow the rules? Too bad. Get yer ass out in the yard and pick me a nice healthy switch to tan your backside with.

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Most of the theorycrafters I have run into since the days of Everquest do exactly that. They test out a skill, use some tool to measure it’s efficiency or potency, and either keep the skill, or spec out of it.

In what game, do you ever recall being able to save your character client side, and then alter it as you see fit? Are you that new to PC gaming? Usually, data is kept on a remote server to prevent such behavior. Not all of the other new players come here even thinking that a hex editor, saved game files or blank characters are even remotely a solution, know why? Because, and I will say it once again for the thick headed, it has never been a common solution in the past. There, hope that sinks in this time.

By the way, did you actually read where I wrote that I downloaded saved games and blank characters last year, and my personal results, without your detailed instruction on how to do so? Or did you conveniently gloss over that as well, just like the part where I said respec costs were not an issue for me personally to date since starting the game. You’ve never seen me once even remotely take issue with respec costs in these forums, because I know how to make more than enough iron bits to cover the cost of anything.

If I wasn’t fine with the game the way it was, I would have moved along long ago. I am still here, many characters later, still playing and enjoying.

Have fun chasing your tail, I see you are here simply for an argument, rather than a valid debate on a pertinent issue.

powbam said it beautifully.

your past must be awfully selective and rather short. For the vast majority of games at any time in the past this is exactly how it could be done… for most of the actual past there were not even any games there this was not the case as there were no servers…

He acts like he’s being victimized when he presents evidence that he willfully does this sort of thing “for fun” anyway and he says he’s just “cool” with it or that he’s taking some sort of high road despite the fact that he keeps posting and sniping at people with passive-aggressive comments.

And yes, he’s being ridiculously selective. Even the game that basically started it all - Diablo - allowed you to move game save files around and keep backups. It’s been that way from the Sacred series, to the Divinity series, to the Dungeon Siege series, hell even straight up RPGs like the Infinity Engine game series.
And apparently I’m the one who’s supposed to be new to PC gaming.

Same thing with Grim Dawn, except it’s worse in GD because by the time you reach Ultimate, good luck respeccing if your build doesn’t work. As terrible as the endgame is in Borderlands 2, at least you can experiment freely without cheating.

Well my point was primarily that the Borderlands skill trees don’t exactly give you enough room to fuck up. Everything’s viable in BL because everything is going to be a slight deviation from one or two archetypes of a character.

I like being able to fuck up. Makes me feel as though I’ll eventually learn something. But if fuck ups are meaningless, why go through the hassle of learning anything?

I agree, I like permanent (potentially risky) character building choices as well (currently playing Tree of Savior and loving it). My point is that the cheap, full respecs in BL2 complement its terrible endgame, where GD’s “meant to fix small mistakes only” respec system makes its terrible endgame even worse.

The world of Cairn (beyond Act 1) is so linear and boring that I can’t fathom playing through the game that many times just to see if a build is viable anyway.

If you’re playing the game just to test out builds then that’s what creating save game backups, trainers, blank character save downloads, using mods and etc. are for.

No character build in GD is so terrible it can’t possibly be salvaged. You have to actually be trying to mess up a character to screw up that badly. As long as you actually focus on just one or two types or skills (or a theme like summoning/elemental damage/vitality damage/etc) then you’re already halfway there.
The bar for mere viability is very low.

If you’re like others though who just like playing a specific playstyle and then watch your character grow and even flourish as you constantly refine your build then that’s what creating new characters is about. There are precious few ARPGs nowadays that cater to very specific playstyles like GD does. D3 itself was a ridiculously poor game in this regard.

Borderlands is a game where you basically just point your gun at something and shoot, while occasionally pushing some other button to activate some X skill. I’m not even sure why we’re comparing it to game that allows DoT builds, skill spammers, summoners, ranged builds, tanky melee builds, squishy juggernaut builds, all manner of hybrids, etc.

Eh. Just use a trainer then. I never have yet personally but if all I was going to do is reconfigure my skills and that’s it, I’d hardly call it cheating. So, because you can do it freely in BL2 it’s suddenly not cheating? Even tho it’s the same principle?

At worst maybe bending the “rules” a lil bit. Nothing to lose sleep over anyway.

Besides, you can respec quite a bit in GD before feeling the burn. The OP’s case was clearly due to overuse and partially because of early access, tho it sounds like he woulda committed the overuse irregardless.

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You could do this in Diablo 2 and 3? You could do this in Age of Conan, WoW, Rift, Asherons Call series, Anarchy Online, Star Wars Galaxies, Guild Wars, etc etc etc? I don’t remember ever being able to save the character file locally, alter it to my liking, and have it translate server side. Rather short is not the issue, I have been PC gaming since Meridian 59. I only play multiplayer games as well, so maybe single player games had that functionality, which I would be unfamiliar with.

Occasionally a specific game would have a specific test server with unlimited respecs for the sole purpose of trying out an upcoming build/patch, but that is not so very common.

That seems to be part of your problem. You’re thinking in purely mp server terms it sounds. GD may have mp but it is in no way tied to a server and Crate has always been clear that their primary focus with GD is sp.

Any game probably since the dawn of computing that is stored locally on your computer you will have been able to meddle and hack away with to your liking provided you have the know-how.

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