I think that CC-ing bosses breaks the balance of ARPGs. But it’s also the most fun thing to do for me. Or second most fun to killing big scarry fat bosses in seconds because you have figured out the right build and grinded all the gear.
In this ARPG, yes. The pro cc guys don’t see how much random cc there is on most attacks that they don’t even know cause it doesn’t work. If it starts to work Crate would have to remove most of them cause 1 hr after the patch nerf threads will start to be posted.
I’m sorry but this again is a twisted argument. Hardest waves in Crucible and 60+ boss rooms contain no “crowd” to control. Currently there is nothing to cut off. If bosses would spawn with some heavy hero support, and by heavy i mean resilient mobs with strong abilities (instead of stacking million of strong debuffs skills in bosses’ kits), it would be a whole another story and CC would be viable in endgame.
As of right now “pushing for clear speed” means survivng. At least for melee. Three latest builds i’ve made are more consistent and dying less in Crucible with more offenisve versions of them. This is absolutely ridiculous but it is what it is. Because if you want to survive in 150-170 you need to basically kill bosses 1 by 1 as fast as possible before you’d be debuffed into oblivion (and bosses be buffed into infinity).
I want my multiple Fissure stunlock, please.
I think that people underestimate how many enemies are vulnerable to cc because they tend to focus only on endgame bosses. Non-boss enemies completely immune to all forms of cc are actually pretty rare. To list some, you have aetherial wisps, some stationary enemies (like aether cluster, aetherial obelisks and plants), ugdenbog golems and cold heroes in the specific case of freeze. The rest, included heroes, are pretty much vulnerable to cc.
It’s not, but think what you will.
Most bosses are not completely immune either, and even a split second of CC can interrupt a boss’s special moves.
Just to clarify. I’m happy if my homebrewed build on my potato laptop is able to clear in ~8 mins without dying too often. I’m not chasing for world records and personally i find it a questionable hobby. I just like to make interesting builds. And a lot of interesting melee builds can’t survive in Crucible if they don’t have enough dps under their belt. There is no winning back with 2 reapers + 2 casters alive if you can’t kill one of them straight away. No kiting. No waiting for buffs to refresh. 4 nems stacked together and living long enough penetrate any defense.
This always have been the philosophy of melee builds- kill before you’re killed.
But lightning AAR Mage Hunter for example, no. Sir Spanksalot made a DPS twist of my build and created killing machine but build became really glassy and extremely skill dependant. For lot of builds damage comes for expense of defense and not vice versa. If you play my posted build you’ll be doing nice time on good clear rate. If you play Spanks variation you’ll die a lot and even time won’t be better cause you need to reposition yourself often.
And now imagine if you had CC available as a defense tool for melee. Occasionally stun or trap the enemy to get away from the chase, or to single out the weaker enemy. A whole new layer to the endgame.
Right now in many situations there is no choice between offense and defense. The endgame funnels the building into dps, not the other way around. People who want to clear fast and people who want to survive and finish the mode have met their goals and have to build basically the same thing.
And a slippery slope where CC can be abused to basically lockdown a specific boss into doing nothing. I understand your point of view, you are just not seeing the consequences of CC being enabled to work on bosses.
maybe make strong cc like freeze, stun, petrify, confuse changes into just slowing or weakening the damage/offensive ability of un-cc-able enemies?
example: you try to stun/freeze/immobilize/petrify/confuse korvaak, but he just got slowed a bit/his damage weakens a bit/his offensive ability is reduced slightly. if you throw a lot of cc into him, it will add up until the slow/weaken/missed attack becomes noticeable and decent enough to be used in end builds, without cc becoming overpowered.
right now, cc is just an amusement skills for clearing mobs with extra style and eyecandy.
arcanist to common mobs: HA! you all can’t touch me! you’ll freeze and die a slow death from my op OFF!
inquisitor with aura of censer build to common mobs: what mobs? those corpses that drops dead when i walk past them? stop pestering me with useless questions. i got over 9000 bosses to farm in sr and cruc.
I already said in previous comment, i can see it would be a nightmare to balance now and i understand the decision to ban CC for bosses. What am i not seeing? Stuff about melee life is just my sore wounds. And CC for bosses would be just one way to heal them. Oh well.
I’d say you’re just not seeing the detriment of their inability to function on bosses.
I’m curious which ones you think aren’t completely immune. While I didn’t sift through the entirety of the boss catalog, both phases of Warden Krieg, Cronley, and Karroz are completely immune to Freeze and Stun with “essentially immune” status for Petrify and Entrapment (98%).
Thankfully, Bolvar has what I would consider “fun” levels of CC resistance. Just enough to make most applications be reduced to sub-second times, but not so much that it’d be unnoticeable.
And here’s the big issue that I have with this.
If THE UBER ENDGAME ELITE wants to CC a boss, it can. But what about everyone else? The only people that can get some microsecond interruptions on boss AI are the ones that don’t need it in the first place? So instead of coming up with unique, isolated solutions to difficult problems, the game becomes “get more stats” (resists, health, etc.) What if instead of needing to overcap your Aether resist by 50% against Ana, you could apply a 0.25s stun via Shadow Strike or Grenado to cut off her Devastation cast? Is giving a higher skill ceiling to those with “poorer” gear collections such a bad idea?
Polymorphing or silencing or otherwise interrupting bosses in WoW has been core for years. The break bar in Guild Wars 2 is a unique spin on the same basic premise (commit resources over time to CC a boss before some party-wipe mechanic). Basically anything can be CC’d in PoE/D3. Why is GD committing to a fault on this antiquated ideology?
I don’t think anyone but the naysayers (cough cough) have mentioned chain-CC’ing enemies in this thread. But chain interrupting? Sure. It’d be pretty RNG-heavy.
I don’t know about you but I just looked at my three most recent builds and none of them have any hard CC whatsoever, other than knockdown, and I give knockdown a bit of a pass because it requires animation work (something standing back up) to make it “look good.”
It´s been a while since I last played WoW, but what are/were the consequences if you don´t/didn´t use it?
Iirc, the boss couldn´t be defeated or was very very hard without this CC. I don´t think this would fit with Grim Dawn…
Ok. This has kinda convinced me a little. What about perhaps lowering the CC res of bosses like krieg, and annie in MC, and only in MC?
That way, you keep* (edited) the balance in end game challenges like SR and crucible would remain untouched
Oh sorry I included knockdown. Soldier’s got lots of sources for that tho. Demo has stuns, confuse. Occultist got confuse on black death, nightblade’s got an assortment on stuns, freezes (that aren’t limited to cold builds), and the infamous blade trap. Arcanist got OFF, TSS, Shaman gets stuns from cd Primal Strike. Inq has knockdown and freeze on runes as well as freeze on chilling rounds. Necro got ill omen that works even as 1 pointer for confuse. Oathkeeper’s got aegis for a single potential full lockdown stun if you get really lucky given the cd reset chance.
I kind of want to chime in, but am too lazy to argue over this. So note that any knee jerk reaction to this shall be met with the release of highly trained Canadian geese, Emu ground support and the Sea gull special unit after you.
I want bosses, even superbosses to be not entirely immune to CC, but at the same time I don’t want them to get CC’ed to death.
Right now, I don’t really see the point in even including CC in your build outside of the leveling phase where it might be of some help. Yes, there are 2 particular endgame sets that let you CC bosses, but imagine if melee was not viable outside of 2 or 3 endgame sets…
And yes, you can still CC non boss enemies at any stage of the game but you don’t need to as you will simply reduce them to blood splatter in the time it takes to blink anyways, even with non optimized, not dps oriented builds.
I am assuming however that if CC was allowed on bosses, it will mean having to rebalance all of it since it will be an un needed addition to most builds as we are all ignoring it currently (citation needed) and doing fine for the most part.
Chain CC’ing can be fixed by giving the bosses a buff every time they get CC’ed that lasts for x seconds and gives them higher cc resistance for the duration, if needed. Unless ofcourse, GD’s engine doesn’t allow for such things.
I am however, not asking for buffs so that we can kill stuff easier while eliminating their threat entirely, or anything like that. It can be balanced to be a either/or choice, just like glassier setups kill faster but can also die just as fast while tankier builds are hard to kill but also slower when it comes to killing enemies.
It doesn’t have to be like Warlords during FG release…
Ok. Maybe I’m the dummy here, because whenever I use the term “boss,” I’m referring to Nems (and I know that’s just plain wrong on my end).
So in this case, people are arguing for CC on the likes of Krieg, and Annie yes?
Me? I am referring to pretty much everything including Celestials.
But to be perfectly honest, I do fear Annie more than Nemesis and Superbosses right now.
That’s something I think we may have to agree to disagree on, at least as far as the crucible and SR is concerned as those are optional high-yield farming M.O’s
I remain undecided on MC, but intuitively I think nems should remain un-CC’able
EDIT: like being able to stop korvaaks chest bump in mid air is huge, or grava’s ball buster
2nd EDIT: but on the topic of Annie, that bitch needs to get turnt down. Please, Z
It doesn’t seem right for a non-Nem to be universally feared more than celestials/super bosses
@x1x1x1x2 - I don’t see the harm in making someone like krieg cc-able tbh. In fact, I’d be okay with the non-celestial bosses of the base game being vulnerable to cc