Why was demolitionist overlooked in 7.0/7.1?

Grim Dawn Ideas and Feedback
1

Demo rants. At some point they got so dense that people should have stopped posting them in separate threads. That’s because those rants were finding their way into most threads anyway, regadless of topic. Demo rants became a lifestyle. A trademark. Something to print on your T-shirt or style on your coffee mug. Surprisingly, almost none of them pertained to the changes that followed in 1.0.7.0. Demolitionist enthusiasts, in the long run, felt like a teenager who was promised a car for his 18th birthday and got an airplane - made of paper.

For those who have joined the forum recently I will summarise the biggies.

Number 1. Thermite Mines. They are so clunky, have such a small radius and are so fragile that some of the recent top builds do not use them at all. THIS IS SPOILER[/spoiler] THE ONLY CASE IN THE HISTORY OF THE GENRE WHERE MAIN SOURCE OF RESISTANCE REDUCTION IS NOT USED (even as a one-pointer) BECAUSE OF HOW BAD THE SKILL MECHANICS ARE. Effectively, the mastery has no true access to rr outside Agonizing Flames which 9 cases out of 10 is irrelevant due to Elemental Storm being better. As a result, it can be argued that demolitionist is the offensively weakest mastery in the game.

Number 2. No access to da, health, adcth, heals, cdr, dmg absorption/reduction, resistanses, dodge/deflect, etc. Pretty much anything defense related (except fumble, some oa shred, minor phys dmg red, and Blast Shield*). Meager amount of armor on Temper does not make up for anything; temper s only taken as a one-pointer outside phys commandos (which have lots of armor anyway) or builds that can convert all flat phys and happen to have spare points. Effectively, it can be argued that demolitionist is also the weakest mastery defense-wise.

* The first of the only two things that are universally agreed to be good about demolitionist.

Number 3. General clunkiness of ALL CASTS (reducing the effectiveness of the very few pros mentioned in 3.). It takes 1-3s before demo casts take effect. In a sense all demo casts are a litttle bit like inquisitor runes.

Number 4. Pretty much all dmg figures in the mastery tree are mediocre. There is no such thing as “demo powerhouse.” Brimstone**? Yes, okay, but half its effectiveness is due to inquisitor wps.

* The second of the only two things that are universally agreed to be good about demolitionist.

Number 5. Gear converting demo dmg types can’t compare to aether, cold or even vitality (outside Beronath commando and Darkblaze pyro).

And so on and so forth, Back to the title question: why has nothing been done about any of it? Instead we have better support for physical grenado and some such due to removed conversion on Ulzuin (I forgot: Number 6. No exclusive.) and something lightning I didn’t even finished reading about after I skimmed the text and found no “Thermite Mine” keywords. Yeah, one or two persons asked for those things, true, but only once the biggies were repeated a thousand times and again. Little buff to Blast Shield? Nice but…it was already good so what’s the point?

Before someone jumps out and lists all the little inconsistencies and generalizations, I wanna say that the above is not just my personal point of view nor is it any sort of compendium of knowledge. Its funtion wasn’t supposed to be just informational. It’s an honest inquiry, a simple “why?”

2

Thank you for this thread. I agree with most of the points presented here.

Honestly with the Nerf on Inquisitor class, I expect some improvement on demo defense and offense, with emphasis on defense side.

But nothing is done, they only take but not give. Purifier now has become a class where your options is only using justicar or LD set. You can only play with different weapon because your defense is just soooo bad…

We also still have problem that demo just cannot work with anything other than Inquisitor, in some cases Arcanist, and soldier. Although the latter also doesn’t have much variation in build. Don’t bring up pyromancer because it only has one working build.

BTW, you gave a great idea. We should print out sticker like “demolitionist hate everything” and put it on our car’s windshield or laptop or whatever. Forum signature will do too, I guess.

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk

3

Two points I didn’t include:

First, a good illustration to the miserable existence of the demolitionist is a comparison of one concept across two classes: Shar’Zul Firewave. This is a commando build, through and through. It’s a demolitionist weapon. Why then tacticians achieve 2 minute faster results without all those massive skill bonuses on almost identical setup?

Same goes for any other build: tactician is better as Beronath Warborn, vindicator is better as totemist, etc.

I’ve seen warlock being mentioned quite often in the changelog thread as the class that needs buffs. I don’t know if anyone noticed that people simply don’t bother using words like defiler or commando anymore. The latter hasn’t been on the map for years and the former… there isn’t even a map…

4

Things I like about the new update.

  • It is now possible to create a pure fire Grenadier or a pure lightning Grenadier. This is history in the making.
  • the barrelsmith set is a lot of fun and I approve of the changes.
  • the 10% phys converted to fire removal from Ulzuin’s chosen is welcome.

Defensively I do think demo is the worst but I don’t want an exclusive skill. I can’t think of something demo could have that other classes don’t already have. Instead I would like them to try and take a few skill in a different direction.

Vindictive Flame - Give the DA bonuses back. It should have at least 120 DA at 26 and maybe around 80 DA at level 16. Give Vindictive flame flat absorption values and modify Blast Shield so instead of having flat absorption it increases the absorption value of Vindictive Flame by a percentage. This would require to invest in both Blast Shield and Vindictive Flame but I have never had issues capping Vindictive Flame because there’s bonuses for it all over the place.

I still think Ulzuin’s Wrath should be it’s own skill and not a modifier to Vindictive Flame. Have it be lightning focused and have it trigger on ranged attacks (including AoE). Or just simply “when hit”.

I feel demo is predominantly a nuker and really needs something to mitigate damage until he can get the ball rolling. I’m aware there’s flashbang but that’s not enough in some cases.

5

Aside from the BS buff that got through in testing and was due imo, I belive there should be some more
defensive mods for vindictive Flame (if the base skil won’t have it which is not a bad idea now). DA/%Armor. Stuff like that.

Perhaps if more people join this and make some noise it will prove that it is a problem for non BwC builds

Also more Defensive FB mods like Desolator has.

6

I second this thread.

It`s just not fun to play demo anymore. Before AoM it was kinda ok. I even posted gladiator capable Pyro Caster. But now with all those buffs and improvements elsewhere Demo feels like shit.

Like we can rename this class to “Fire Strike/Black Water Cocktail dude” and it’s gonna be not far from truth.

7

Yeah. My BWC sorc is good now so bye :rolleyes:

Seriously tho we need DA for demo. Or at least give Flashbang some OA reduction ON THE MAIN SKILL, not on mods.

8

I didn’t include gear changes in the assessment. Barrelsmiths are nice. A set with clear identity and functionality. I want to believe there’s more where it came from in FG.

But it doesn’t change the fact that the essential demo skills underperform beyond what can be expected to be fixed by gear mods. My main problem is with the mines but adding generic defensive stats as suggested by Ptiro should also be a priority.

Many different ways to fix the mines were suggested by many people and range from pure fantasy like explosions of da shredding confetti, spider mines or shuriken mines to more practical solutions. I believe making mines immortal and decreasing uptime and damage and maybe adding cooldown would be great. Increasing radius on top of that or having rr last for 2-3 seconds after leaving the radius would have me pledge to purchase Crate’s releases until I die and have my sons do that for 5 generations.

9

Where were all of you guys when yesterday’s thread about Acid and Poison got locked, lol.

It feels like Sorcerers got stronger due to some buffs to Fire damage in general and Burn damage feels stronger now, so that’s a welcome change.

Thermite Mines modifier on Infernal Knight’s helmet is a decent boost as well.

Removal of conversion from Ulzuin’s Chosen was long overdue.

Modifier that converts Canister Bomb’s physical damage into Lightning is welcome as well.

Can’t say much about Barrelsmith changes, I personally dislike Grenado/Stun Jacks/Canister + Ulzuin’s Chosen mechanics.

So now, about bad stuff that’s still bad. Grenado/SJ/Canister mechanics with Ulzuin’s Chosen. The mechanics of Ulzuin’s Chosen proc feel very wonky to me, I am never sure if it procced and I am about to throw a second or a third grenade. I really don’t know what can be done about this mechanic but it just feels weird and is the reason I (and I am sure a lot of players who tried it) dislike playing such builds.

Stun Jacks have been nerfed. Why? Probably some sick Stun Jacks set coming to FG? I have no clue. Skill has been dead before so noone really cared when it got nerfed in 1.0.7, but I am sure it raised few eye brows. Physical part of SJ and absence of any conversions tools for it has been discussion is like beating a dead horse, so not gonna do it.

Defenses. Mastery lacks any. In current meta Flashbang can’t be really relied on. There is not a single resist, cc-resist, DA or (meaningful) armor modifier in the whole mastery bar. Yes, BWC damage shred is decent, but it’s just physical and it can’t compete with War Cry or Decay or Censure. I would sugget adding couple of cc-res or DA somewhere (Temper or Vindictive Flame).

Offenses. Mastery is meant to be offensive. But currently it doesn’t feel like it. I would take Vindicator over Purifier for anything pew-pew related any day of the week. Melee Fire Strike is only good with hard to get green item. Talked about Ulzuin’s chosen skills already. Can’t really say much about Mortar Trap because I didn’t play it.

10

Zantai actually revealed in Ceno’s really long patchnotes analysis that in the current internal build, Temper is losing armour in favour of physical resistance. There was a bit of discussion about whether it should actually be replaced with DA instead, though. So that’s a thing.

11

I was in the middle of writing a golden reply that would have enlightened everyone and solved all the world’s problems but I never got to post it.

Dunno about sorcerers and their burning problems but this mod for me is just about on par with that disrupt res on Dreeg set. Whoever wanted the mines to be even further apart? (it’s not radius, lol, it’s target area)

Matter of taste and getting used to, I guess. Personally I’d rather have good ol’ cdr.

Truth is anything in demo can’t compete with anything outside demo. Even Flashbang which pre-AoM was the biggest da shred bang for buck now bows to Biting Cold (whose RoH still deals more damage than all 3 Ulzuin’s skills combined).

Here’s one. 100% clunky 0% funky. Gotta facetank with close to zero sustain or the mortars miss. Sometimes I think that demo skills are botched on purpose to create a lore impression that technology was shite during the Victorian age.

Aw man I love me a good demorant :smiley:

12

Cause there’s shit i can’t talk about:D

IMO Poison/acid is looking good and the future is bright…err…ripe with glorious filth and puss.

13

Some of the problems of the demolitionist in my eyes are:

1)A severe lack in defense
No DA at all, only bit of DA shred in the form of BWC. As most builds have only 1 point left over this skill this is rather lacking, No health, adcth, phy res or DR%.

Some suggestion to fix this would be:
-add DA/PR%/armor%/DR% to temper + and/or increase the armor value it give
-add health bonus/DA/armor%/DR% (and perhaps adcth)to vindictive flame

  1. A number of skill need a total rework or a serious buff.

(Ulzuin’s wrath)

A) Increase the offensive power of the current skill
-Remove the minimum distance limit.
-Increase the frequency of its attacks greatly.
-Change the skill from single target to a small AoE of 1.5 to 3m.

or

B) move all the offensive skill from vindictive flame + add them to Ulzuin’s wrath while making a pure buff from vindictive flame (Does not fit the skills name and description that wel but it could still kinda work if it added flat fire damage or it could simply be changed).

{Termite mines} (repeat from a previous post)

QoL changes
-Increase the speed at which you throw the mines so that they arrive on the ground faster.
-Make the mine spawn in a triangle formation instead of a straight line and perhaps increase the amount of mines spawned per cast to 4 or 5 (and of course increase the summon limit by the same amount)
-Make the Mines Invulnerable to damage just like Wind Devils

Straight buffs
-Increase the size of the AoE of the Mines
-Make the -RR last 2 seconds(the same duration as the burn) + apply the debuff immediately when they are near a mine

{Temper}
The stats it gives are rather lacking both the armor bonus and the flat physical damage (considering how flat physical damage gets reduced by armor). Add more defensive stats as mentioned above.

  1. Fire strike lacks conversion support considering that it uses 4 different damage types making the skill do less damage then it should be capable of.

The only item that converts lightning damage to fire is a caster chest pierce. While the 1.0.7.1 patch did add chaos to fire support but as they are chest and shoulder pieces they would conflict with the justice set, Dagallon and the Ulzuin set, greatly reducing the value of these items.
There should be more items like belts, medals and rings that convert chaos or lighting damage to fire.

Chaos damage converted to fire damage would enable fire builds to take full advantage of brimstone and would enable(more) fire based pyromancer builds.
Lightning damage converted to fire damage would enable fire builds to take full advantage of Static strike and + stun jacks + would enable(more) fire based elemetallist builds.

There are also plenty of skill modifiers for Fire strike but non of them add flat fire damage for a ranged build. Only two items buff the fire damage for Fire strike the Ugdenbog Arcaneweaver that adds elemental damage and the Ulzuin’s Flamespreader adds weapon damage for a fire builds, as the Ulzuin still sucks this is rather meager.
Also what is weird that is has Fire and physical damage% but no + Lightning damage%. I suggest changing physical damage% increase to fire damage% and the fire damage% to + Lightning damage% to better support lighting based Fire strike builds(For physical builds cadence would work better anyway).

4)While the Grenado, BWC, Canister bomb, Stun Jacks(Not sure about this one perhaps it need large buff then the others) and mortar skills can be good they require significant investment both in skills points and in gear before they are effective. In general these skills requires a more skills points and gear support to make them good as compared to other similar skills as storm totems and the inquisitor runes. Add to this that the skill are rather chunky and thus should do more instead less.

I suggest turning down some of the skill mod for these skill and significantly (More then build would lose if focused on these skills ) increasing the return per skill point investment in the skill to A) buff the skill to make the more useful and B) make it easier to use them as complementary damage sources even if the build does not builds its whole build around the skills.

  1. The Ulzuin set is still fairly lacking.

-For at set that occupies a helmet, amulet and 2 weapon slots it only give +2 to all demo skills, this far too lacking. especially if you consider that it has skill bonuses for temper Vindictive Flame which are of limited use to ranged fire builds. I suggest adding +2 to demo skills to the weapon as this will also allow you to use the weapon outside of the set.

-The lightning damage stats are currently rather pointless. Either change to set to totally support Fire + lightning by changing the weapon damage type to Fire/lightning and adding flat electrocute damage or remove the lightning damage bonuses in making room for other bonuses and add a lighting to fire mod for Fire strike to the the 4th or 5th set bonus

-The vindictive flame mod does not fit with a ranged build. Either change it to a skill mod to one that is more fitting for a ranged build like Flash Bang, a second Fire strike mod or Termite mines. If not change it from one that add damage to a one that adds buffs like +Health, DA, OA, armor% or Attack speed.

14

The only item that converts lightning damage to fire is a caster chest pierce. While the 1.0.7.1 patch did add chaos to fire support but as they are chest and shoulder pieces they would conflict with the justice set, Dagallon and the Ulzuin set, greatly reducing the value of these items.

No, no, no, plz do not add items that do not conflict with Justice set. The dmg must come at price and not wearing absurdly good Justice set is a reasonable price to pump-up dmg.

15

Looking good you say? I hope you weren’t that tester that was responsible for the “new” Dreeg set. I took my A&P Witch Hunter - only relevant poison caster build currently - shit ton of tweaking and balancing to make it passable by today standards (if 10 minutes is really passable). It took me exactly 10 minutes to make Malakor’s Tactician (I actually used grimtools link from your arcanor fw build cuz I am lazy) and it’s instanteneously a number 1 melee build and it’s not even close. So yeah, it seems that it’s not poison builds who are getting all the puss currently.

16

Bigger blast shield not enough for you?! I’m joking.

Agree on thermite mines. Agree demo could use more versatility in conversion. Agree skills in general could use another look over. It’s on the list, but they do get flashbangs. Grenados being less clunky would make me actually use them for example.

17

Because Fire strike builds are totally overpowered damage wise?
I also mentioned the Dagallon and the Ulzuin set, unless you find these overpowered as well? A glove slot could be used as well if you wish to avoid giving the Justice set more power or the Justice set could get a nerf in terms of the flat damage it adds.

18

I think 13 seconds dummy kills on Desolator or 13 seconds on Luminary is totally overpowered, yeah. I think player dmg is overtuned by at least 50% at the moment, and stain-up broken when it comes to autoatack+wps interaction.

19

Yep. There is no need to rehash the suggestions. Straight up waste of time if devs don’t seem to respond or acknowledge the feedback.

As long as demo gets some love in FG I can wait but patch 1.0.7 was disappointing for demo. Man do I hate that thermite mines mechanics remain this horrible…

20

Aka nerfing the only strong point of the demo class its fire strike + wps interaction (and brimstone for ranged). Also skills like Runes of Rune of Hagarrad and PB can do more damage then you could ever achieve with auto attack builds(which have the disadvantage of rooting you in place).

Edit: Then there is candence to consider if the autoatack+wps interaction gets nerfed cadence would get comparatively even more powerful.