I had to come back and post this because my conscience won’t let me sleep at night if I don’t admit that I was wrong about something. I apparently did the wrong calculation, because I somehow believed that 100% cast speed for spells in general means that they’re cast once for that normal speed. And I thought that channeled skills must have their extra description to state that they’re cast more often at 100% cast speed, but in smaller ticks. The description mislead me and made me think that it must be 4 times faster than any normal spell. This is just another case of walking hand in hand with wrong information about the game, it shouldn’t discredit my ability to think and reach normal conclusions, but rather only impacts the result obtained. So, if someone would’ve just pointed out this wrong assumption of mine and in a civil manner, the discussion would’ve been over pretty fast. Gnomish Inquisition said that I’ve done the calculation wrong, but he didn’t tell me (or I haven’t noticed it) what my false assumption was, so I can correct it. Yes, it isn’t the first time I had wrong information, but that doesn’t mean that I’m not humble enough to admit it and take it into account from now on. I don’t know who the people in the community are exactly, but your way to make a point leaves much to be desired.
Coming back to my previous analysis, I should recalculate everything and see what I get this time.
We have Acid purge cast 4 times per second, which means 140% weapon damage and 1.8k flat damage.
We have Phantasmal blades cast approximately 3 times per second, which means 45% weapon damage and 900 flat damage, but this time per projectile. In the case where all 5 projectiles hit the enemy, we could get 225% weapon damage and 4.5k flat damage. This time the total damage of PB is twice the damage of Acid purge, so the numbers actually show that it’s a valuable skill after all. This is a great relief to me, because I thought I’d have to avoid it or wait until it’s modified to at least be equal in efficiency as the “lousy” skill that you could get from an easily craftable component. Glad I was wrong, I have yet another piece of correct information to carry with me from now on and a good skill to use in my builds.
I’d appreciate any responses made to this to be civil or, just so it won’t derail, it would be best not to. Thanks.
yes i did?
in my first post i said you didn’t apply cast speed scaling to PB (i dont’ expect you to know the internal speed scaling since they are hidden), making it a basic point that AP values “disparity” was higher because on AP you did apply cast speed (forcing diff values).
In my second post i expanded on it, again saying it doesn’t just hit 1x/second, and even gave you the dmg value from the roughly 1.5x cast/second PB gets at 100speed.
Yes, but I believed that I did apply it. Because I thought that channeled spells are cast 4 times more than normal spells. That’s why I didn’t understand what the problem was exactly.
it’s not as simple as that, and you can’t really apply such basics “universally” to GD if you’re going to have some applicable corrections or analysis.
AP tickrate we know because it’s explicitly stated, but other channels can and do have different tick rate (also doesnt’ factor in windup speed ofc)
Even if using PB as example, say it has a 1.5x animation speed; not all casts/spell attack has to have the same, they can have different/their own set in the files, and it will not display in tooltip whether they’re fast/slow/“normal” animations/cast speeds scaled
And in essence all boils down to that gentle nudge Ceno invited to, playing the game instead of just sheet speculating.
Stuff that appear strong in theory can suck in play, or can suck to one player while being fine/“feeling OP” to another. Other that seems mid can be dope, and some will be as equally bad/avg as the impression tree/tooltip gives.
With PB you just had a bad choice of skill that’s been widely known as OP levelling skill for years (so good was used by speedrunners too at some point), while being on the recent buff list and top20 nerf consideration in a row
Even if it might have seemed hostile, there was a reason so many players were saying the same thing, also if they weren’t suggesting a different methodology or correcting the math, they tried the skill either levelling or endgame or both and what it could actually do, (while accepting parts of the game can’t be ignored “in play”, adding to XY skill’s/build power, and it does matter aside from base numbers).
And that could also have been accepted, instead of going by base class skill numbers/a metric the game was never designed around
I’m just glad that it’s a good skill after all, relative to Acid purge. That was the whole point of the analysis, to find out whether it’s good relative to that skill, not good for a build which aims for PB as the main buffed skill. Because if PB would have been worse, I would’ve been tempted to invest skill points in powerful skills with cooldowns and filling the gap with AP. As a matter of fact, I could do that nonetheless, if I don’t have access to PB or don’t aim to have it in my build.
aye, but that’s again the “misperceiving design intent”
Some skills are passable at baseline, some will suck/some “need” item modifiers to get dope.
Some component skills are good, but since they can’t be modified they will always have potential to be behind, and the game is then designed around using modifiers/some skills might be super strong baseline and others rely more on itemization; but the skill’s aren’t intended to be used as tossaway like that either, but components are.
(eg you don’t just casually spend 40skill points on a filler skill; you do so with intent to overcap it and modify it, otherwise you invest 0 or “1”)
You might 1pt judgment for devo trigger, but you don’t spend 10-15pts just for a substitute button press to keep busy
The game and skill’s balance was never with such in mind.
Yes, but if you have a buffed skill like Forcewave (or even coupled with Aegis of Menhir), with the Octavius set, you spend a lot of skill points to buff them up. And they both have cooldowns, so you might search for a spammable skill (the cheaper the better) to fill the gap between cooldowns. So, skills like AP should be good for that, to have extra damage instead of just waiting and doing nothing.
yes, in that case that’s exactly the use case of a component skill.
And we see and do so often.
Contra using Spam forcewave where you dont’ compare it with a spamable component skill, because it’s not “meant” to be compared, one is a X dedicated build investment, the other is a “freebie” filler meant to be used in a Y dedicated build.
It’s also why you generally only see granted spam skills used on CD builds, because they’re already being dedicated into a strong support skill. Spam skills like (fren)PB then mostly use passives or debuff component skills as their own spam is already more than carrying.
If you compare AAR to Conflagration or Obliteration you will quickly see where parts of the game effects matter/come into play, also even if base 16pt numbers were differently skewed.
Base numbers do matter, specially early game, but they don’t matter “forever”, and is why there is some tips to use ex Fireblast at low level and why some dislike that “interaction”/disparity potential being there. But you’ll probably be more pressed to find an endgame build that’s dedicated “solely” around Stormfire contra class X skill/spammable (while then feeling/performing comparable without class/build CD support), and endgame performance is also a significant aspect of skill dmg/balancing
(and if you frontload too much of that into base skill MC/levelling feels horribly easier)
I for one made a build concept with the Octavius set, buffing both Aegis of Menhir and Forcewave to the max and somehow managed to have Righteous fervor maxed as well, with 100% maxed WPS. But it was an overstretch and I ignored a lot of other passive bonuses I could’ve used skill points on. And I don’t even know if it was worth the effort, because the gap between cooldowns has become only 1 second for Forcewave. Even if the damage of RF + WPS is good enough (compared to anything else spammable), you might sneak in only 2-3 attacks between cooldowns. I can’t decide if it’s worth all the trouble or if I should just “wait” in the 1 second cooldown and use the skill points for passive buffs. What do you think?
doubt it is on a “technical” level, never actually mathed it out/dpyes tested it tho, but i mostly just dont’ do it from being lazier with passives.
Like it can be fun to theme/build maxing multiple skills out like that, but it often doesn’t “feel” worth. But as i’m also a very laid back pilot/clear speed wise it might also just be out of range where i pick up on a potential small improvement it might bring maxing 3 like that.
Like ABB gets better if you use a DAR+wps, (abb also scales attack speed anyway for build stat focus purposes), but if i’m already at 1.5sec cd, i might just consider skipping the DAR and put ABB on LMB and hold down and go “brrr-snooze mode”
*ABB scaling attack speed doesn’t matter for ABB dps, but combined interaction. With FW/Aegis/mixing skills scaling cast speed with AS spams like Fervor it can make the attack pauses a little longer.
This can be highly noticeable on some stuff like if you have a 100% cast speed build with 200% attack speed DAR/shadow strike and you’re weaving in RoS and it feels like you’re basically getting “CC’d” at times from stuck/slow attacks
I felt it’s very worthwhile to have both skills with the Octavius set because both these skills are mainly trauma damage and DoT is perfect for secondary skills with cooldowns. The set also provides an additional internal scaling to trauma damage of 800% and 600%, which is enormous. Like the Aetherwarped cleaver is for Cadence, Octavius set looks like one of the best pieces of gear in the game to me.
19 frame animation skills are mostly 3.75 at 200% speed. Play characters have a hidden 25% attack speed and cast speed. 19 / 125% / 200% = 7.6 frames, round to 8. So 3.75 per seconds.
omg i keep forgetting this, even tho you’ve announced it like 3? times now
Suppose i keep mentally treating char base speed modifier as if it adds 25% “straight to sheet” instead of multiplying under the hood (ie my mind goes base speed is 75% cast, char bonus brings us to 100% “like it was an item”)
Lets see if i can remember it the 4th time speed factor gets brought up…
Because somehow nobody mentioned it in the 50 or so posts between the previous thread and this one:
This is someone who has played Phantasmal Blades from Level 1 to Level 100. He (just going off of avatar, I don’t personally know Honorbru Sudoku) has demonstrated that Phantasmal Blades is a viable skill from early game to “Legendary item farm” endgame.
Plenty of people, including myself, have made endgame builds using solely the Acid Purge skill. It is a good skill if you invest your resources into using it, but Phantasmal Blades has a much higher ceiling when you account for equipment that have skill modifiers that directly buff Phantasmal Blades.
There are 500+ viable builds in this game. Some may be lesser versions of the builds posted in the Top 20 build thread, but even those lesser versions can beat everything in the game outside of maybe a particular super-boss. There is no reason to optimize the fun out of a game if you haven’t even played it yet.
shouldn’t be like 3.16 ?
, as always