Let’s stop tilting at windmills.
It’s pretty clear now that everything is fine and perfectly balanced.
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I was talking about items as in armor/wep/jewelry etc, not components 
You’d have an easier time convincing me or even Zantai if you stayed more rationale with your arguments.
Or hell, just accept that it’s his and his team’s game and he gets to do what he wants with it. I’ve made requests over the years that have never happened and I just shrug my shoulders and move on with life. Game’s still great.
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The thread started out well by illustrating a problem and suggesting a specific solution. That specific solution was rejected, but alternatives still exist to remedy the problem. There were quite a few rational arguments put forward, but I do not know if those arguments were taken on board.
I only assume my suggestions will be considered as feedback, and I dislike how negative presumptions can be made about post intention.
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I think there is a misunderstanding here that was never cleared up… Maya was rather obviously saying “Zantai, your argument is intellectually lazy”, not “Zantai, you/your team is lazy for not doing the physical work to implement and rebalance this thing”.
And I have to say, as someone who came from PoE, was interested in this game for two years now, but just picked it up a month ago during quarantine and got his first level 100 a couple weeks ago, I… kind of agree?
Zantai, please let me explain, and before I start properly explaining, let me note that maybe the issue here is that there is a core subset of original Grim Dawn players who very much don’t like PoE who want the game to be slow, and are happy to play 100 movespeed builds as long as they can maximize their DPS and facetank bosses, and maybe you’re specifically catering to those players, and in that case, the issue here is that you merely haven’t expressed that in this particular topic because you think everyone already knows your opinion on it.
But (and this is where the “explanation” starts) I’ve been reading a lot–a LOT–of popular build guides since picking up the game, and I have to say, 90+% of the player base (at least among those who read/react to builds) feels like 130+% movespeed is outright mandatory for a build to feel okay, much like 80+ all res (with most reses overcapped by 30+) is well-known to be mandatory for a build to survive.
People that ordinarily wouldn’t have a reason to dip into blue devotions are speccing it because they need the movement speed. Which is clearly increasing homogeneity, directly contrary to your wishes.
Now, maybe the answer isn’t what this Ideas and Feedback came up with. Maybe adding movement speed to devotions that lack it isn’t the right call. But I do think if your goal here is reducing homogeneity, you definitely need more (and more interesting) sources of movement speed. Every so often your patches do balances on legendaries, for instance–maybe once in a while, when you see that an underused one needs a clear buff, just make that buff some movement speed? You may think it’s unthematic, but if it lets people make a choice between “sub-optimal dps devotion with movespeed” vs “sub-optimal dps legendary with movespeed”, then that’s meaningful build diversity.
Just please, make it more doable to reach 130% with any build, via some more interesting tradeoffs than what is presently viable. My first build was an eye of reckoning warlord (less than half legendaries, no warborn pieces–I found one so far but it’s terrible on its own) that could reach 135% easy, but anything that struggles to pass 120% just feels like absolute dogshit, even with two teleports.
tl;dr you don’t need to outright remove movement speed as a stat, I just genuinely think you should treat it more like a resistance–acknowledge its identity as something players consider mandatory, and balance items, devotions, basically the entire game, around the idea that people will shoot for the 135% cap. Make it available in more total places (maybe even an armor augment at a low value…?) so people don’t have to betray their own build identity by picking blue devotions all the time, which is hurting build diversity in direct contradiction to your wishes. I honestly believe that seeing it in the context of basically-another-resistance will help you understand everyone else’s perspective on this stat; after all, you’re not suggesting we just get rid of resistances since every build maxes them all anyway, right?
(edit for clarity: the reason Zantai’s argument strikes Maya and me (or at least, me) as intellectually lazy is that his desired outcome doesn’t logically follow from his decision, since build diversity is hurt by the lack of sources of movement speed since everyone forces max movespeed anyway, which in context drastically limits devotion choices for many builds with the potential to be more interesting)
Anyway, sorry for the autistic rant everyone, I actually just logged onto the forum today to see if there was any 1.1.7.0 news and so Zantai’s comment history came up and I saw this argument in which he was misrepresenting someone else’s words so I decided I wanted to step in with my first comment on the forum because I am, in fact, somewhat autistic.
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I specified 130+% for a reason, and I’m basing my “people seem to agree with this notion” on builds that seem to have been popular since at least Forgotten Gods launched (I didn’t look at a single pre-forgotten-gods build, I concede). All of the notably popular builds that I found (based on reaction rates) except the rare seriously-bossing-only builds that I came across, force 130+ movespeed even when they have a class-specific teleport in addition to their medal augment. Often 135, not always.
While I commend you for the detailed explanation I would note for you that these popular builds you are referencing are undoubtedly of the how fast can I clear Crucible variety so it doesn’t take much to see why they would feel that speed of all varieties is paramount.
Man I missed some top-tier forum drama today.
Acting like hitting the movespeed cap NEEDS to be as important to a build as, say, hitting resist caps strikes me as pretty silly honestly. Movespeed is definitely a huge nice-to-have, but you can make up for poor movement speed with runes and skills like blitz. Furthermore, builds were hitting (or even overcapping) on movespeed back in Vanilla GD even before a bunch of Yellow and Blue constellations got added MS, so if you’re struggling to hit this “essential” cap after 15 move levels and 2 expansions worth of gear it might honestly be an issue of the build-maker themselves…
While I agree - to an extent - that more movespeed in devotions is not necessarily a bad thing, I echo Ceno’s concerns that it would make certain Blue and Yellow constellations less appealing. Overall balance has to be considered after all.
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Yes and 80+ res isn’t either, so what?
True but I don’t play Crucible and I would also never post a build that is not at least close to 135 % MS.
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No it is not the game’s fault but just a bad build. And for more diverse good builds adding MS to other devo paths will allow more freedom in devos and new combinations. That is more diversity not less!
Your argument is on the level of keep resistances only in one part of the devotions. Just silly and clearly against build diversity.
Personally I could care less if Zantai does anything with it or not. The entire argument feels petty to me and largely manufactured as yet another nitpick of the week.
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You will probably choose to sacrifice %Damage not Res most of the time as it’s too important I think.
For example Dmt’s Sorc - 2 free nodes of Seru and Sage to Jackal to get 6% total speed.
Then maybe Traveler for another 8%, change of augments to compensate, Physique dump to compensate that…
But you need to be willing to lose the DPS.
Fun video that I had actually intended to point toward a different cause (ahem, a few Praets that for some reason think DOOM’s Marauder is well designed…you know who you are) but it’s surprisingly relevant to this thread.
I think many (but not all) here are echoing the same desire: they want more movement speed. However, the reasons for that desire and the proposed solutions are not so coherent and, at times, making a mess of things. So let me take a shot at simplifying things a little bit:
Low movement speed isn’t fun. (for some)
I think the lowest movement speed I’ve played with on a finished build in the last two years of Grim Dawn was 126% and even that was not played for a very long time. On the other hand, my 135%-speed characters are quite common and get a great many hours of investment at levelcap. I’ve long spoke against arbitrary numerical caps in ARPGs as they don’t sit well with me. When adoomgod and I made Cornucopia, I believe we bumped the MS cap up to 170% and the AS/CS caps up to 250% - our goal was simply to get the cap out of the way, so that no matter how much of something you stacked up, you’d never reach a point at which a design decision said you couldn’t theoretically have more. There’re inherent balance issues that crop up at such extremes, and while we called Cornucopia a rebalancing mod, it kind of wasn’t. It was a mod which we found fun.
PoE gets away with not having very many hardcaps, but it also unfortunately throws a ton of means to stack things at the player’s face. You can lightspeed around with +200% movement speed in PoE (which would translated to 300% in GD) and attack so many times a second that the servers crash, because there is no hard limit.
I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say that most of GD’s audience doesn’t want something so extreme. This belief comes from seeing post after post after post saying “Hi, I’m here from PoE where I had a lot of fun but the game was getting too fast/spammy for me…” So there’s probably a middle ground somewhere between what PoE has and what is not fun to people like me or others in this thread.
100% Movement Speed sucks. 120% Movement Speed sucks. It’s not because builds with these speeds can’t dodge spells or attacks (although that may be the case), it’s that the logistics of getting from Point A to Point B and having the adventure you want to have takes so long with such speeds. Similarly, why do you think people want the Broken Hills rift closer to SoT, or the Barrowholm rift closer to the actual town? There are things people have fun doing in Grim Dawn, but you have to get to them first. And not being able to get there quick as you can, or rather, quick as is allowed is less fun than being able to.
Semi-Relevant Musing
In the old days of Grim Dawn, during the Early Access period before I was one of these dreaded Praetorians, I remember getting into a spat with medierra. I’m 99% sure I pulled the “lazy” card against him (which, by the way, calling the devs lazy is just a sign of your own laziness in formulating an actual argument of your own). I don’t know what we were arguing about - was it that debuffs stopped scaling over 100% Weapon Damage? Or maybe the implementation of Conversion? I got into a good many heated topics back then…
Regardless, medierra said something to me that stuck with me for literally half a decade (and I wish I could find the exact quote on these forums). He (approximately) said:
This is the first real feedback you’ve given me on this subject…
Naively, one could look at that as though he was dismissing every other one of my arguments and get in a tizzy as a result. But, perhaps to my own credit, I absorbed that comment and made the decision to approach the situation more introspectively. From then on, whenever there has been something that I haven’t liked in Grim Dawn, I’ve been hesitant to throw a fit over it and suggest that I, and only I, know the way things should be done. Instead I take some time to really think about what it is that’s so-irritating me to try to determine whether I can formulate a conversation that the devs can actually work with. Usually - but not always - I find that such an argument boils down to “I’m not having fun with X” where X is a build, item, area, enemy, etc.
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the words about the Sailor’s Guide and Eel becoming less taken in builds if MS is added somewhere else echo through the whole thread but … why? These devos truly have MS but I personally take them for that tasty bonuses that they provide besides ms (like slow/phys res, pierce res etc).
So this argument seems not so valid to me.
Sailor’s guide and eel are some of the most universal picks when you can squeeze in a few extra points. Blue-yellow T3s are mediocre, but their T1s are some of the best, and it’s not just because of movement speed.
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All of this you can get on the Throne but no movement speed in the purple ones…
Yellow devos are generally meh if you are not a phys/pierce build or you go after Scales.
I’d rather add ms to some devotion that take both acid/chaos and ele builds that go to Sage/Seru so everyone would be able to benefit from it.
I am not against that. Throne is OK as it is. Quill and Candle are not good, they could get it. Raven is OK but could get is as well.
3 things I want to say about that:
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I am lazy. I think you know that by now just like plenty of other people
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What use is formulating yet another argument that will only fall on deaf ears when the first few haven’t gone through yet?
As someone who has personally seen Z change something after a certain Ice Cream obsessed someone posted just a reactionary gif/meme while just replying with his usual snark/ignoring/or outright saying “No” to actually well thought out and written arguments by people, I think I have to say that it is less about how you detail your stance and more about whether it is in line with Zantai’s own philosophies. -
As mentioned before saying that someone’s excuse for doing or not doing something comes off as laziness rather than acceptable reasoning does not mean the same as saying their entire work is lazy. And no one is perfect, not even Crate devs. I dare say, far from it, even if they have made a game we all play, enjoy and have sunk countless hours to.
If I were to call the devs actually lazy interms of developing GD, it would be more for important information that should be presented in the game itself instead of requiring players to learn from 3rd party sites or the community, like the order of RR applying, the flat phys and armor interaction, displaying skill overcaps over the hard cap etc.
Sorry about it guys, but yes I would call the devs out on their laziness for not including such things in the game itself, even if some of the stuff is present in the website’s guide. And if calling them “lazy” comes off as an insult, I would say it is a well deserved one in this particular case. I can understand not wanting to bloat tooltips with all the details, but not displaying skill overcaps? I am Disappoint!
But anyway yeah, I suppose back to on-topic
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