Just for that 18% phys res proc for 5 sec with 25 sec CD? And for that i have to lose really a lot (Solemn Watcher, for example) Is it really worth it?
Obviously i can do it. But damn ring still doesnt want to drop.
Zantai said
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and how he’s going to explain that video? Bugged patch?
Thankfully I don’t have to explain anything since I can look at the code that has the order of events.
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In that case, i think i’ll trust you.
@Zantai @grey-maybe @sir_spanksalot @Stupid_Dragon @RektbyProtoss @Ceno (pinging a well known doctor of Cadence since I used it in the test below)
I’ve made a test that agrees with what @BOG and @moongazer concluded
here and in Resistance works before block and armor? in independent tests
(I don’t know their methodology yet and hadn’t known what the result of the test was supposed to be) which is that
Physical Resist works before Armor
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I have a save with a character doing constant Physical damage with Cadence (not having variable sources in gear such as weapons)
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https://www.grimtools.com/calc/d2jz76r2 (I don’t use Menhir’s Bulwark, it requires a shield, 2h anyway)
https://mega.nz/file/BdMUDRoL#C-mNe1NsHGGTHg0D00bQnow1f9QzWNBgUanYJg4bSs0-
out of this 2796 damage only 50 is Weapon damage, the rest is Cadence native Physical I see in skill tooltip
(that would be my pure fist damage = 1 (base) x 4.2 (Cadence WD) x 13.5 (from my %Damage
which proves there are no other separate flat sources in character) -
Cadence has increased Physical damage in 1.1.9.2 Public Beta
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only 1 source of Physical damage - Cadence
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I concluded that target dummy armor is slightly off in Grim Tools, 1517 instead of 1585? by analyzing differences between damages on various difficulty levels and matching it with different absorption levels
- armor of dummy seems different in files but even if you use different armor it’s hard (at least for me) to explain the results
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test done in Normal where Armor Absorption is 70% (slightly more in Elite and slightly more than that on Ultimate)
Anyway, after modding Target Dummy Physical Resistance (Defense Physical) to 20
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I tried doing it in various ways because you can change it in dummy, in the difficulty adjustment, in dummy passive skills…
- every time my damage dealt changed from 1734 to 1183 (sheet damage is 2796)
Now if Phys Res was working after amor, I would deal much more damage, around 1734 x 0.8 = 1382.2
Whereas calculation with Physical Res working before Armor I get 2796 x 0.8 - 1517 x 0.7 = 1174.9
and is very close to what I deal (1183)
From 1734 to 1183 there’s a whooping 32% decrease which was obtained just by increasing dummy’s physical resistances to 20% from 0%.
Sorry if my test is wrong (i.e. somehow this is Total Physical Damage I changed) / I modded badly (or perhaps Dummy is programmed differently than other monsters), don’t understand something. I encourage others to devise more tests confirming it or telling me what I did wrong.
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Curious, can you test the % damage absorption too? I wonder if your result agrees with the sequence resistance -> absorption -> armor or with resistance -> armor -> absorption.
I did a simple test, where I removed damage bonus from cunning, gave dummy 1000 armor and I hit it with a 1000 damage sword
Got results suggesting physical resistance is after armor: https://imgur.com/a/wm7FXTQ
However, after restoring the cunning bonus, I am not getting expected result ( probably mistake on my end with damage calculation)
Might toy abit more with a damage that does nto match the armor value 
Edit: this is likely a false positive since I chose a damage matching the armor
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Yeah, you got me confused for a while but in that case as you say the order doesn’t matter - you get the same result anyway
Dummy armor = 1000
Dummy phys res = 10%
Player’s damage = 1000
If Phys Res working first:
1000 -> 900
then full 70% of it absorbed (because it’s smaller than Armor) and we end up with 900 x 0.3 = 270
If absorption is working first we have 1000 -> 300 -> 270 too
I tried it a few times but got confused, modded different things with different combinations of dummy’s parameters. Maybe modded wrong values. I will attempt it again some other time.
I figured out the difference why my calculations where slightly off, I get 100% theory match now:
Cadence Weapon damage and Flat damage are blocked separately by Armor
Now the theory and data:
dummy’s armor: 1461
My Character vs Dummy with 20% Phys Res (1183 damage)
Calculation:
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56 is reduced reduced by Phys Res
- 44.8
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2740 is reduced reduced by Phys Res
- 2192
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44.8 is absorbed fully in 70% by dummy’s armor because it’s lower
(here the order doesn’t matter)- 13.44
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2192 get reduced by dummy’s armor x 70% absorption
(here this order does matter [that it’s done after Phys Res])- 2192 - 1461 x 0.7 = 1169.3
Add the two and we get 13.44 + 1169.3 = 1182.74 ~ 1183
There’s still chance I modded Phys Res (DefensePhysical) wrong / dummy works different etc.
but I don’t expect it / give it small chance (with my limited modding knowledge).
I modded DefensePhysical in various ways and also checked that these DefenseFire etc. are actually resistances.
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Just tested it on player’s part: phys res certainly works before armor
Increased phys res on 4500 armor warlord from 39 to 80+25, it resulted in 0 physical damage incoming from Calla (so GI doesnt display physical as incoming damage at all, only pierce and bleed).
Now with 39% phys res and 4500 armor Calla still is doing physical damage (tested in unmodded game). If phys res had worked after armor, then the physical damage would have still be present, just 5 times lower (and ~3 times lower compared to 39% phys res). But it wasnt “reduced” it just didnt pass the 4500 armor check.
So it seems like your test is correct, tq
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My data also suggest physical resistance is first:
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Thanks for tests. @grey-maybe your test is a great addition because it shows we’re not failing at modding in this case. I also thought about such a test but I’m not good at preparing and doing those field tests (choosing build / enemies appropriately etc.)
How I feel
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Could you please also test if resist reduction (leading to negative physical resistance) works as damage multiplicator before armor is factored in?
Yes it does
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This and Phoenix discovery… makes me question what kind of game I have been playing all this time 
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It’s the game that keeps on giving.
I can (anecdotally) confirm two things between your post and the bottom of this thread (because by god am I not rereading everything above from two years ago) :
- Target Dummies have a very unpredictable, if not outright variable, armor value.
- Pretty much everything grey (and thusly tq) said…as usual.
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I think it’s fine (1461 on level 102 seen in a file).
It’s just that 3 things mess up testing
- different absorption depending on difficulty level:
- 70%, 70% x 1.04 and 70% x 1.075 (on Normal, Elite, Ultimate)
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separate sources being blocked separately
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most sources being random values
If I redo the calculation I made above on Ultimate and without 20% Phys Res on the dummy:
2740 - 70% * 1.075 * 1461 + 56 * (1 - 70% * 1.075) WolframAlpha
Checks out perfectly with 1655 i get below:
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So don’t shoot the messenger…but yes, armor is the last step for physical damage.
Programmers telling me this straight faced like I was not told the opposite last time, but your results and what happens in the code confirm this to be true.
Certainly makes what I said about this 2 years ago seem a bit stubborn, but I will fully admit that my answer to this previously was in fact incorrect. The Game Guide will be corrected.
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So player armor (and by extension monster armor) is more impactful given this new order of damage mitigation