I think you should hire a PR guy. You are not just a player anymore and you have to think for the whole community. Maybe its my impression but your post was a bit blunt. Even if its 1% asking for the no DRM version, they are as valuable as the other 99%. Its not that they are asking or demanding a no DRM release, it was Crate who offered it on release in first place.
Blunt is good. To me being “blunt” conveys a good bit of honesty which I’d rather have than some PR guy lying to my face and using round about tactics to deflect and delay and hiding details and smoothing everything over with standard replies that tell you nothing useful.
If only more companies had the nads (and personality) to be blunt rather than constantly running in fear from the consumer.
But that’s just me I guess.
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You are going in extremes there. Non blunt doesnt mean lies and blunt doesnt mean honesty.
Note: I said it “conveys”. It roughly means uncompromisingly forthright, direct, candid. To me that has implications of honesty.
Like I said, maybe it’s just me.
As far as PR guys and lies go… That’s their job, to smooth over. To me that means lie if necessary, whatever it takes to assuage the troubled masses until a resolution can be achieved to leave everyone happy. Not saying they always do or would, but it is firmly in the territory. Big Tobacco loved their PR guys.
I’d feel a lot more comfortable getting the word directly from the horses mouth rather than filtered and regurgitated by some PR guy.
Would you rather hear medierra tell you directly what’s happening or have someone else water it down and leave you hanging with, It’s in the works, more news ASAP. Thank you for your patience.
I saw how well that worked for EA/Maxis during the whole SimCity Online fiasco. Their forums were in utter chaos because of tacked on responses like that from their PR department.
Or are you saying you just don’t like medierra chit chatting with us like a real human being?
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Hire a PR guy? I don’t know, I think most people appreciate real and honest communication with someone who’s not paid to bite their tongue, hide their emotions and provide soulless PR responses according to a corporate cue.
On the hand, this is part of our “brand” as a small indie developer and what attracts some part of our audience.
Even if its 1% asking for the no DRM version, they are as valuable as the other 99%.
This may not go over well since it seems like you don’t want to hear an honest response and really, I don’t mean any offense in saying but the hard reality is, in a business 1% is not as valuable as 99% of a market.
However, it isn’t 1%, it’s probably more like 10%. I mean, I have no idea what portion of the KS it was but the estimate is that GoG sales tend to be about 10% of Steam sales. From a pure business perspective, while 10% is still not as valuable as 90%, it is certainly worthwhile and profitable to pursue that 10%.
I didn’t start Crate purely to make money though. It was also a way to be able to develop games on my own creative terms while reducing the stress and politics I had to deal with. So it may be bad business but I’d give up 10% of a market if I felt like the extra work and stress involved was not worth it. I mean, once your needs are met, what do you do with extra money anyway? If you could spend some extra money (or not earn it in the first place) to be happier, wouldn’t you do it?
Not saying I’m gong to give up on DRM-Free yet on account of the hassle and some negative reactions to our delays but those are some of the things that come into play when you start looking at the value of something.
It’s not like we’re talking about whether an ant-DRMer’s life is worth as much as a… Steamer?.. (that sounds dirty?). This is just a game release.
Its not that they are asking or demanding a no DRM release, it was Crate who offered it on release in first place.
Wait what?! 
Why would we do this if we didn’t know anyone wanted it? We made this offer because we knew it was important to some people. In the context of my previous post though, what I was saying is that, while we knew people wanted it, I admittedly didn’t really know exactly what that entailed at the time. Other Kickstarters were doing it, people had asked us about it, so we jumped on board.
With something like this, where you don’t have experience doing it, you have to sign up for certain things and take on challenges and assume that you’ll be able to figure out a way to do what you set out to do or at least try your best. While we haven’t been 100% successful, I think we’ve done a reasonable job of it, all things considered and we’ll keep trying to do better.
If we handle things better in the future though, I think maybe we can put out a DRM-Free release with less work, less stress and happier results for everyone.
Well written and well said. 07
care to explain that logic ? I’d say percent for percent they are, but given that they are 1% only, that makes them roughly 1% as valuable as the rest, not equally valuable…
I think what he’s trying to say here, is that every single customer deserves to be treated with the same respect and dedication… regardless whether they are part of a 1% (or 10%, or whatever) minority who bought the DRM-version, or a big majority who bought the Steam version… because they are all paying customers who support the game… that’s the important part… they all paid (the same amount of) money to support this game.
(it’s important to note that I am in no way implying that I myself don’t feel treated with respect and dedication in this matter!)
Exactly, ty.
I think the most sucessful companies, at least in their beginnings, make uber efforts for even their non profitable customers, and then they build a solid reputation, trust and public image. For example, Trion when they released Rift and Gazillion since they started Marvel arpg, both companies were out and beyond to satisfy and care for even the more loneliness customer, Gazillion in particular have a very personal and direct approach without being the PR stereotype.
Thanks for answering me back Medierra, I still don’t think a PR is about lies and deceiving and more about communication and skill to communicate ideas, again, Gazillion was amazing about that and a good example to follow, they were professional in their answers but direct and friendly and cared about everyone, they were so good that after put 200 upfront as a founder, I got another one for my wife when I saw how good they were on their forums.
I love Crate and I think Grim Dawn is the best among every arpg out there, you have lighting in a bottle and I think you are design geniuses, I even made a call to support them in other post as I think its in situations like this when a company really needs support, I just wanted to make a positive criticism for them to improve, I still think they need to in the comm area, there is a lot of confusion, angry backers, etc. People is usually mad then they are promised something and then there is late delivery, but don’t blame no DRM supporters for that, blame the delay, people love GoG over Steam btw because they were a fresh non drm approach with nice quality and support and Steam communication, support and forums are almost an insult to the user, in my case I like and use both services but if they were in a race, I’d cheer for GoG.
So, part of the reason this is all rather complicated, is that Steam and GoG are distributors who provide their own keys for game sold on their sites. They wouldn’t and it doesn’t really make sense for them to accept one another’s keys in exchange for one of their own. They also don’t do KS backer fulfillment or really offer any custom flexibility to provide a total solution for providing people with a choice of keys.
Humble, being a key re-seller does and they’ve been great at working with us to provide solutions for some of these complicated logistical issues.
Therefore, we’re using Humble to distribute the keys. GoG will provide us with batches of keys (like Steam does already) and we give them to Humble for distribution to backers.
Part of the reason this has taken even longer than it would otherwise is that GoG is 6-7 hours ahead of us and Humble is 3 hours behind. If I email GoG after 11am, it usually takes until the following day to get a response and Humble gets into work after GoG is heading home. So if Humble asks me for something I need to get from GoG, it takes until the next day.
We’re close to finishing this though…
gosh i wish i knew about the game long time ago 
i think that would be more of a saftey measure for you and your company. some people maybe preferring the hard cold reality of your twisted truth… others might not care… but there will always be a small minority that will go out of its way to make your life miserable over things you said to them when they weren’t in the mood to hear about it. this has all the ingredients of a shit storm. combined with the way social communities tend to go all sjw on your ass for the dramas sake only… you probably just playing with a hornets nest for no good reason.
This may not go over well since it seems like you don’t want to hear an honest response and really, I don’t mean any offense in saying but the hard reality is, in a business 1% is not as valuable as 99% of a market.
so here it starts to get ugly… are you saying my $160 in ks backer money is factored in the same way a $30 steam sale? are you even realizing that you are talking about people actually playing on steam vs people who supported you because you offered an option not to use steam?
However, it isn’t 1%, it’s probably more like 10%. I mean, I have no idea what portion of the KS it was but the estimate is that GoG sales tend to be about 10% of Steam sales. From a pure business perspective, while 10% is still not as valuable as 90%, it is certainly worthwhile and profitable to pursue that 10%.
you know… that’s how corporations think as well when they do something devious to gain some $1b on the off chance of paying $100m in fines. cost of doing business. it’s so dehumanizing that i could throw up in my mouth every time i see diesel gate… because lets face it… there are a lot of those. your 10% are just taken out of your arse. when you were backed on ks the percentage would have been a lot different and the backer distribution is also a lot different. someone who paid $500 is “worth” a lot more to your business than anyone who backed you with “only” $50. … 10 times as much is not even the TRUE VALUE of that backer, because someone paying a crap ton shows real faith which in turn draws in more of the cheap crowd. so your percentage numbers fail to achieve any meaningful value distribution. talk is cheap NOW that you HAVE a business. the TRUTH is kind of different from what you claim though.
I didn’t start Crate purely to make money though. It was also a way to be able to develop games on my own creative terms while reducing the stress and politics I had to deal with. So it may be bad business but I’d give up 10% of a market if I felt like the extra work and stress involved was not worth it. I mean, once your needs are met, what do you do with extra money anyway? If you could spend some extra money (or not earn it in the first place) to be happier, wouldn’t you do it?
just as an analogy what 10% of people can mean to a game and its longevity: how many star craft 2 players do you think keep that game relevant? the professional gamers are a very small percentage yet without them sc2 might have died long ago. now you might say that gd is no esport… well there might be similar niches. like the people who made diablo 2 trade forums… or people who write mods… or people who just keep playing your game long after everyone else (even you) moved on. i think you get my meaning? you don’t know who those 10% of people are. people are not just a percentage and ignoring that fact could cost you a lot in the future. be smart and don’t bite the hand that feeds you.
Not saying I’m gong to give up on DRM-Free Y E T on account of the hassle and some negative reactions to our delays but those are some of the things that come into play when you start looking at the value of something.
now you are treading on dangerous waters. if you didn’t realize by now there’s more at stake than a few thousand bucks. you are dealing with your credibility. if you don’t care for that go ahead and post your angry developer feelings on the forum. let me tell you… keep those feelings to yourself or crate. as a customer… there are certain things i don’t want to hear. one thing is that i might or might not get what i paid for… in advance… with a premium. this goes beyond refund. you are kicking your future prospects in the butt here. this is why you have community managers. think about what your honesty achieved so far and where it will lead to. you just TOLD everyone that DRM is an after thought for you… still is. so we know where we at at least and also why it takes you so darn long.
It’s not like we’re talking about whether an ant-DRMer’s life is worth as much as a… Steamer?.. (that sounds dirty?). This is just a game release.
this is a very sad thing to say from an achievement you poured so much life and love into. i’d suggest you get some vacation pronto. you seem a little burned out.
Wait what?!
really. basic research fail? gimme your moneys and i’ll promise the world to you.
With something like this, where you don’t have experience doing it, you have to sign up for certain things and take on challenges and assume that you’ll be able to figure out a way to do what you set out to do or at least try your best. While we haven’t been 100% successful, I think we’ve done a reasonable job of it, all things considered and we’ll keep trying to do better.
If we handle things better in the future though, I think maybe we can put out a DRM-Free release with less work, less stress and happier results for everyone.
the question is why omitting something is more work than the other way around. drm free means you are basically giving this game up without a fight to copyright infringers and hope for the best… not that steam helped with that. the whole point of drm free is to make it as accessible and hassle free for everyone as possible?
honestly… you should stop posting your feelings here… nothing good will come from it.
…huh.
To me, DRM-free meant not needing a service to update it, be it Steam or this Galaxy. I was perfectly happy to get a download off Humble, for the base game and any further expansions, because of the following reasons.
I specifically paid out twice for Titan Quest/Immortal Throne; once on Steam, once as a DVD because I wanted to use a mod program to play around with things, and the most recommended/only recommended one suggested that some mods (i.e. the ones I wanted to use in some cases) wouldn’t work on the steam version. (Also I was getting a little scared by how much time Steam was claiming I was logging on TQ:IT, heh.)
So assuming there are people out there modding this game, I would prefer to be adding their mods to an install independent of any service like Steam or Galaxy, because Steam/Galaxy could present an issue with a mod working. This may not be as much of an issue as it was with TQ, but it was still a factor when I got the game.
The other problem is that from what I’m seeing, Grim Dawn released keys for playing the game on Steam in beta, and the game naturally upgraded into the full game when Crate Entertainment said ‘go’. This is possibly the ‘standard’ way, and admittedly as far as I know, Defense Grid 2 is the only game to keep beta and full release separate: my beta license expired when the full game was released, and I had to redeem a new key for the full game.
So that key? Was redeemed on a Steam account I don’t have access to now, which wasn’t something that I worried about: we were promised a DRM-free copy, which I figured would be some type of standalone install we got as a download off Humble Bundle, as that had been used to distribute keys.
shrugs I’m with medierra; I don’t see the difference between Galaxy and Steam. I don’t particularly want either of them, myself.
But I guess I’m stuck with finding a way to access my old Steam account somehow, because I don’t want to download yet another gaming service thing onto my computer, which is like… several years late for an upgrade that I haven’t been able to afford yet.
Dianna, going through GoG doesn’t mean you’re required to use Galaxy. Galaxy is optional. You are free to just download updates directly from your account on their website (that’s what I do, too…) - so just like you would download the DRM-free download from your HumbleBundle account.
That’s the big difference between GoG Galaxy and Steam… with Steam, using their Steam client to download/update your games is a requirement.
Well I can honestly say after reading steams TOS I felt like going with them was accepting my money had no worth and I in years to come would have to accept having no consumer rights.
I believe my words at the time actually we’re … so it’d be like putting my money in a Wood Chipper, yeah I’m not going to do that.
The reason I have stuck with GOG.com for so long and invested so heavily in GOG.com games actually isn’t simply that they offered DRM free games; there have been others Originally the humble bundle wasn’t chock full of steam games (but then again neither were non digital retail stores, but don’t get me started on that) at the time.
There was gamers gate that seemed to have transparency in labeling drm/not (+type), and of course there was green man gaming (which must of been going downhill and they changed their system a bit [all my games suddenly became deactivated]).
I was recently even sent onto the Indie Gamestand by dev Rick Carlson of Sea of Stars (I backed the kickstarter but never seemed to get an email with the DRM free key; good bloke, bit chatty), who used that as his launch platform after being turned down by GOG for some reason (certainly not from lack of interest judging by the vote page).
The reasons I guess I fell in love with GOG.com and stayed there was because I could get my DRM content surely enough, but that they put in the extra mile with games to ensure they worked (and additional services like securing the music and artwork gave that nice bit of a touch to release), the community was really quite warm & helpful (in those days; I personally think it’s gotten a little too big too fast) like a cozy suburban gaming club with just everyone hanging out, it was a natural unification point for people wanting to protect themselves from the invasion of steams version of our consumer rights (a last bastion holdout, with a simple message that they wouldn’t budge from a no DRM stance) and lastly and it’s probably a bit silly (though most marketing gimmicks are), but it had a lot of pleasing aesthetics to it that didn’t get in the way of doing business (I liked the box art on digital shelves, the layout was not overly complicated, sale was only a couple clicks away and looked well built into the site itself [not third party])…
Okay now I’m starting to feel I’m advertising, which is not my intent.
What I’m saying is the general vibe of what you are saying is correct, but I’m sure it’s a little bit more complicated when you get down to the individuals & nitty gritty.
Hell I still remembered when they were tossing up what GOG even stood for… Good OLD Games or Good ol’ Games (implying all games done simply right).
Don’t get me wrong there was numerous times they ticked me off, the website shutdown that had me posting memes about slanting their customer base for a laugh (just give the blue monkeys what they want-avatar), their until they sell out sale which you just had to be there for -> it was like a bad train wreck that turned into the hilarity of a godzilla movie just that bad and crazy it ended up getting you tearing your hair out laughing (you probably noticed me mentioning Jack Keane; go relive a piece of the magic), their geo-pricing that subsidized other countries but strangely enough not mine (though arguably not that big of a thing).
They could improve, there is still no way to support a dev by donating them money (I wanted to give money for the original free Spelunky… no way to do it :P).
Sure I’ve been tempted by steam I’ve had friends who’ve essentially socially isolated me or socially punished me for not buying steams latest AAA titles that came out that instant, and I do wish I could pay to play such games knowing I cannot pirate them without eroding the very value of my stance, but at the end of the day the way modern AAA titles have gone I am consolidated.
I am not someone who can afford 3 Nvidia titans and all these games seem to be very picturesque but fail to build on the technologies we already have.
technologies such as decent (see non-cheating) AI, truly deformable terrain (red faction 1), have a lack of intrinsic value in replay-ability (randomly generated levels), unboxed loading (where there is unnecessary immersion breaking loading screens or pauses every time you move into/out of a building) and miss the point that gameplay defines a good game from a bad (for an example of a truly horrendous game sit down and review the ins and outs of monopoly. That game will lose you friends almost as fast as I hear the boardgame diplomacy does).
This surely should qualify really for the rants forum by now; but I’ll wind up with an apology over syntax as it is hard to keep from more natural fluid speech when talking about things close to your heart, and hope I’ve at least given an interesting read, as well as a break from the more serious goings on.
I just felt like the afore mentioned view needed substantiation over the hurdles OF THIS FREAKING U.S. DICTIONARY THAT EITHER A) DOESN’T KNOW COMMON WORDS OR B) EXPECTS ME TO USE BASTARDIZED ENGLISH!!! :furious:
But that’s the thing, many forms of DRM DO affect you. If it’s an online check at each startup, then you can’t play when the DRM server is down (of it the owner decides they don’t want to support your title any longer). Another form of DRM keeps some assets and/or logic on the server and then you get stuttering and lag even when playing by yourself.
Luckily both Steam and GOG are better than that.
Your answer would be better served by visiting GOG.com and getting their official word on exactly what issues there are commonly with mod support etc. going with them.
Suffice to say if you don’t have a problem with a standard game install via a standard installer.exe from a dev themselves that’s drm free; you won’t have a problem with GOG. Games on GOG in no way require galaxy.
DRM free version of Grim Dawn was one of the most important reason to buy this game (multiple times) for me. I have no issues with delays because I am understanding issues. But all this debate is heading in really wrong direction.
It is not important why people want DRM free version. But reading this thread is leading to negative feelings towards people who like DRM free version. I do understand there is some anger toward devs. But devs should be always above this, no matter what (and this is not about percentages). I definitely appreciate honesty from medierra. But I have to say that it is not always good to tell certain things. It is always good to weigh your words (no offence at all, and it applies to everybody). IMO of course.
That’s a bit like saying the patent system destroying legitimate businesses within your own economy so long as it hasn’t yet impacted you personally, you shouldn’t take seriously or even attempt to contemplate the scope or ramifications of… even though you ‘are’ in a business.
I really wish I could live like you *nods along.
Rights, values & integrity are never easily destroyed in one sweeping motion, it is inaction and a thousand small cuts that severs each one.
I’m not saying you should take everything in life as to be scrutinized by rigorous study; arguably one would drive themselves to madness to do so.
But to have honestly never had a thought as a gamer, about something relevant to your industry; even when taking on work in said industry over many years… ???
I mean the DRM argument has existed pretty much as long as piracy and it considers the effects on profitability of ventures.
I think if I was a farmer I’d at least take a passing interest if there was milk substitution going on with my competitors overseas and mayhaps look if anything is even being done legally about it; at the very least I’d consider if it put me at an unfair disadvantage in my own local market (you know capital risk).
I respectfully disagree.
Even if one has flagrantly offensive viewpoints it is better to be honest rational and accommodating of the fact that you could be wrong.
It is better to be open to healthy debate and able to move towards greater wisdom, than it is to shield ones own views into negligence or to commit to a devolving argument.
I for one even though I’m not actually opposed to it (i don’t take a functional stance like changing my vote over it), don’t believe in gay marriage rights in my country. My viewpoint is that it does not preserve the culture of marriage in the country, is unnecessary when they can just call it a union (who wants the state to have anything at all to do with a persons love & union) and frankly I do find it a bit offensive like watching two old or particularly fat & ugly people (like me) kissing (though realistically I’d rather have a blanket ban on public displays of affection [and other sordid/lewd behavior]).
Convincing me may not remove my prejudice, but of it’s need for equality it is hard not to side with or at least step out of the way of.
That right there is why it is more important to debate than to censor; in ignorance & stubbornness you simply cannot move forward.
BTW there’s an appropriate place to debate such things (http://www.debate.org/debates/Capitalism/10/) this one seems pretty good.