I don’t mean it in that way.
Obviously not, but that a customer buying it for $25 on Steam is equally valuable as one buying on GOG for $25.
are you even realizing that you are talking about people actually playing on steam vs people who supported you because you offered an option not to use steam?
Most KS backers play on Steam. There is no reason to believe the ratio is different for KS backers than between Steam vs GOG customers.
you know… that’s how corporations think
and by that you mean any business should
If you create 10 car models and most are selling well but one model fails to break even, you stop creating that one model to stop losing money, this is no different.
You don’t have to go into illegal stuff you think you might get away with / still worth doing because of low fines for this logic to apply.
because lets face it… there are a lot of those. your 10% are just taken out of your arse. when you were backed on ks the percentage would have been a lot different and the backer distribution is also a lot different.
you have no numbers to back that up either, I actually doubt that there is a large difference
someone who paid $500 is “worth” a lot more to your business than anyone who backed you with “only” $50. … 10 times as much is not even the TRUE VALUE of that backer, because someone paying a crap ton shows real faith
and that was not what the argument / math was about, it was about Steam vs GOG buyers, not KS supporters
just as an analogy what 10% of people can mean to a game and its longevity: how many star craft 2 players do you think keep that game relevant?
and what makes you believe that those players are predominantly the ‘DRM-free’ ones rather than the ‘don’t care’ ones ?
be smart and don’t bite the hand that feeds you.
the question is if that even is the hand that feeds you, the DRM free crowd is passionate about DRM free. Steam players are as passionate about GD as they are.
now you are treading on dangerous waters. if you didn’t realize by now there’s more at stake than a few thousand bucks. you are dealing with your credibility.
oh, GD will come out DRM free, no doubt about that. I take this statement more as a ‘but we revisit if offering that option in the future is feasible’. If the answer there is no, look to this thread as to why.
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They said they will give a DRM free version on release
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They don’t, due to the reasons we all know
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Some people gets upset (I’m not one of them but I support their right to be) because it wasnt delivered on time and they were counting on it, some more vocals than others
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Some people start bashing them to the point of blaming them if there is no more no-drm option from Crate in the future.
I find the point 4 so wrong, borderline madness, if there is a bad vibe here, is not because the no-drm community, its because there was a delay and they admit they didn’t know very well what they were doing, that’s it, so now guys like the one I’m quoting, blames the victims?
No one, no one, should be here justifying why they want a no-drm version, if I’m offered a blue dragon doll and I don’t get it I dont have to defend myself telling why I wanted a blue dragon doll. Also the ppl at Crate can defend themselves and they already explained why there is not a no-drm version yet. We backers, loyalists, etc just have to wait but people soudnt be put to shame in these forums and never should the costumer be blamed in this case.
no disagreement about 1-3. as to 4, did you read medierra’s post ? Tell me where my interpretation is wrong.
No one, no one, should be here justifying why they want a no-drm version
no one is required to justify that, but how the DRM free crowd communicates their disappointment in the DRM free version not being available yet sure could use some justification - I just don’t see there being one at all, so that won’t happen…
but that’s not the issue here. i’m a backer and my guess is that many other backers did so and maybe even gave more because of the prospect of at least having the option of a drm free version. medierra is putting us all in the same pot. because from his point of view every person has/had an equal stake in making gd feasible. he even considers letting go of 10% of those vocal people because after all… they are only making up around 10% of the whole pie. which isn’t true. again… many of us waiting for the drm free version backed them during the ks or even before. it just happens to be that gog is the only drm free distribution. he can’t realistically know now many people will actually buy the game in the future on gog. the only numbers he’s got are the people who backed them and do not play on steam. so atm the moment it’s really about KS vs DRM and not GOG vs STEAM.
and by that you mean any business should
If you create 10 car models and most are selling well but one model fails to break even, you stop creating that one model to stop losing money, this is no different.
You don’t have to go into illegal stuff you think you might get away with / still worth doing because of low fines for this logic to apply.
i don’t understand what you are saying. it’s not as if those people who bought the one model didn’t receive it at all? they probably got it at the same time the people who bought the other 9 models got it. the 10th model wasn’t some freak show after thought. in your example it only ever turned out to be a bad idea after the fact.
you have no numbers to back that up either, I actually doubt that there is a large difference
i can make the numbers up like any crate dev does… the point is, that those numbers are somewhat probable and not outlandish.
and that was not what the argument / math was about, it was about Steam vs GOG buyers, not KS supporters
again… there ARE NO GOG BUYERS as of now as the game is not released there yet. only backers who are waiting for the gog release. atm the only real numbers are ks waiting for gog release which in my book equates to ks == gog. for now.
and what makes you believe that those players are predominantly the ‘DRM-free’ ones rather than the ‘don’t care’ ones ?
because we drm free lunatics are passionate about what we are doing. i don’t know of course. i’m only extrapolating. passion doesn’t often go along with not caring. i mean there’s clearly a psychological presupposition i’m making here and i might be wrong. it’s just a believe really. nothing substantial.
the question is if that even is the hand that feeds you, the DRM free crowd is passionate about DRM free. Steam players are as passionate about GD as they are.
well that remains to be seen i guess.
oh, GD will come out DRM free, no doubt about that. I take this statement more as a ‘but we revisit if offering that option in the future is feasible’. If the answer there is no, look to this thread as to why.
yeah… you could interpret it that way. if you are naive. i really hope you are right because i’d much rather play gd instead of fighting about my principles. a little drama is nice but it can get to you man.
Hi Crate,
Ok sorry, but i’m still not sure how this is supposed to work. I’ve browsed back quite a bit through all the posts and what i gathered is that if i bought the game through the grimdawn.com site, which i did, i should have access to the DRM free version of the game (which i understand is not yet available). I seem to have received two keys when forwarded to the humble bundle page : a steam key and an obsolete 32 digit key. What i see on the humble bundle page is the following :
Thanks for purchasing Grim Dawn Digital Release!
When the game is released, you’ll find it available to download right here!
Please note: The “Grim Dawn Access Key” will be used for installation of the final game if it is not activated on Steam.
Steam keys will be available upon release.
a clickable button to link my steam acount and redeem the game on steam
A 32 Digit key labelled as Grim Dawn Access Key
For the 32 digit key, it automatically says “redeemed”, which seems weird, but since this one is the 32 digit key that was mentioned here as being obsolete, i suppose i shouldn’t care. But then why does it still say on top that that is the key that should be used for the final installation and only if the product has not been activated on steam. If this key is now obsolete, it might be a good idea to remove that.
The other one is not visible but is clearly a steam key since i can link it to a steam account. But since i want the DRM free version, i’m obviously never going to link that to a steam account, so it is and will stay unused.
So, what’s the plan from here ? It seems you guys are almost there getting GOG to distribute the game for you, so why don’t i have a GOG key then ? Or are you also going to make it downloadable on your site and will it somehow need that second key after all for installation ?
Please clarify. Thank you.
PS : Also, consider removing the limitation of not being able to post image links when you have less than three posts. This seems useless and is a hassle.
hard to quantify since we have no data. If the ratio between Steam and GOG sales is around 9:1 for most games, I still would assume that the KS ratio is not drastically different
medierra is putting us all in the same pot. because from his point of view every person has/had an equal stake in making gd feasible
I did not read it that way, that was about Steam vs GOG customers, KS backers are more valuable, no doubt about that, but among them the ratio of DRM free vs ‘don’t care’ is again similar to that of GOG / Steam customers
he can’t realistically know now many people will actually buy the game in the future on gog.
not sure where the 10% are from. If for most games GOG sales were around that % of Steam sales, it would be reasonable to expect a similar % for GD, it does not need to be available on GOG for that estimate then
i don’t understand what you are saying. it’s not as if those people who bought the one model didn’t receive it at all? they probably got it at the same time the people who bought the other 9 models got it. the 10th model wasn’t some freak show after thought. in your example it only ever turned out to be a bad idea after the fact.
the same would be true for the DRM free version. At the time it seemed like a good idea but now you see that creating it is slightly more involved and you have the DRM free zealots breathing down you neck and the cost/benefit doesn’t look as good as you initially anticipated.
So you discontinue the underperforming model (which here really would be to not offer a DRM free version of the next game)
because we drm free lunatics are passionate about what we are doing. i don’t know of course. i’m only extrapolating. passion doesn’t often go along with not caring. i mean there’s clearly a psychological presupposition i’m making here and i might be wrong. it’s just a believe really. nothing substantial.
but being passionate about one thing (DRM or GD) does not mean you are passionate about another (GD or DRM). There are many people who are passionate about GD and do not mind Steam, I would expect the opposite to be true as well.
yeah… you could interpret it that way. if you are naive. i really hope you are right because i’d much rather play gd instead of fighting about my principles. a little drama is nice but it can get to you man.
I have no reason to doubt that Crate intends to deliver a DRM free version, they openly communicate here about what is happening to reach that goal and where in the process they are.
Not sure why anyone would doubt them this fundamentally (rather than about deadlines)
Actually it is pretty useful. Spam bots occasionally make it onto the forums. This gimps their ability to post links that unsuspecting forum users may click upon before the mods have a chance to clean them.
Most don’t make it past the 3 count post limit before they are removed.
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
The 32-bit key was merely a placeholder as medierra mentioned in a previous post - it was given because people wanted something when they paid to back the game.
In terms of how things will work, once everything is in place you should get a new GOG key in your Humble account. If you used your Steam key to play GD now, then Crate is working to allow us to turn in our Steam key and get a GOG key.
well what else are we ought to do? i still haven’t gotten my dysfunctional car even though it doesn’t need a key and a subscription to unlock. at the time it seemed like something they could use and claim to make the ks happen. drm free is one of the major draws to ks games. i think all of the big ones had that requirement. not having a drm free option is almost not an option on ks. it’s a major selling point even to people who still rather prefer to play it on steam albeit without steamworks. ks was seen of the last bastion of drm free titles until the success of those titles made it clear that there is value in consumer trust.
I have no reason to doubt that Crate intends to deliver a DRM free version, they openly communicate here about what is happening to reach that goal and where in the process they are.
Not sure why anyone would doubt them this fundamentally (rather than about deadlines)
on the other hand we still don’t have a drm free and playable version of the game. so for now it’s all just more empty words to us. more promises that might or might not be broken. this is the only fact we have. so thinking anything else is again… optimistic and also a bit naive.
Hello,
When the game will be released DRM free?
Will the developers be releasing game themselves? I don’t want to use gog neither.
Right, no one should make a criticism of something if someone else likes it… Gotcha.
And you didn’t actually bother addressing my argument. Convenient!
The developers have said multiple times in this thread that they will not host the game themselves. For DRM free, gog or humble.
GoG only, actually. Even Humble will receive GoG keys to distribute.
As for when… “soon”. Hopefully within the next week or so.
I appreciate the transparency. Unfortunately, this doesn’t mean everyone is going to like what you said, and I certainly don’t. Part of the advantage of transparency is the ability to provide feedback to the developer that’s just as transparent. PR people are often hired to shield the developers from this since they often don’t have enough time to sit on forums and argue with people like me. 
Well, this is not a good thing, is it? Where is the “I should have known better” in your post? You SHOULD have known better. You’re a developer, for Cthulhu’s sake.
Most of us are not going to be affected by all the problems that can happen, but those problems are still important and may affect us in the future. Being ignorant of these things is not a badge of honor to wear. This is nothing short of irrational whether you’re a player or a developer.
Most people don’t care about privacy or security, either, because they don’t see a direct reason to; that’s generally not perceived as a good thing but more a demonstration of ignorance that is going to bite our society in the behind eventually because we never seem to be paying attention. People who have been watching business long enough know it cannot be trusted and does not have your best interests in mind, why give it more power? That’s the logic behind the avoidance of DRM by many.
This is not a healthy mindset and may be rubbing off on a lot of people here. If you don’t want to support DRM-free executables, you don’t have to. But promising it, not delivering it (due to ignorance), and then mentioning how “well, most people don’t need it anyway”, just comes off really, really poor and aloof. I don’t really know how else to put it, that’s just how it is. I don’t expect many companies to provide DRM-free software when it’s fairly clear that they don’t intend to. Just like I’m not going to be too bothered by Blizzard not supporting mods. But by saying you will provide a DRM-free version, you have made yourself look like a different style of company, one that understands what DRM means (?), why people don’t like it, why it’s important to those people, and a company that stands for a bit more than “we care about the mainstream player”.
By that logic, why does GD even have mods? Mods are not mainstream. A lot of things that GD does are not very mainstream. It probably have mods because you guys like the idea of mods. This is, ultimately, a bit of a niche game, so one would think the developers would be more attuned to the needs and concerns of other niche groups, especially since those niche groups can often end up rather loyal since they have few other options. “Let’s find out what everyone everywhere likes most of the time” is a rather bland way to make a game, it’s not how GD was made, and it doesn’t make sense to parrot that attitude. You can’t pull the indie card and then say only 10% people care about something in same breath. That’s like the whole point of being indie half the time, is finding an audience out of a 10% of people.
I don’t understand why this is even stated? We’re all aware that non-DRM, security, privacy, etc. concerns are not mainstream. This is a very sad and worrying thing for a lot of us. We look towards niche developers to help address such issues, not compound them.
And as many people here stated, that .001% made your game possible by supporting it on KS…
I don’t mind Steam too much, it’s easier to find games on and it provides lots of deals, + I do appreciate it for providing a better launch platform for many games. I do perceive Steam as DRM due to the fact that it has the ability to block your access to the game, in that Steam owns the game and not me. Perhaps a better term would be service platform, since that’s often what Steam is: it gives you access to games, but you don’t actually own any of them. Steam does give you full access to some games based on how they’re configured, though (GD is one example, I think), but it promotes many games not doing so and that’s definitely clear cut DRM.
Most of the time, this is not an issue. But the few times it’s an issue, it’s an ISSUE. It’s like game crashes. I got 0 game crashes since GD launched, the game runs flawlessly for me. Does that mean I’m going to somehow be magically ignorant to other peoples’ problems? Most people don’t get them, but for those that do, the game is literally unplayable. Those people are going to be angry.
I had a lot of issues with Steam, especially in the past. We bought Half-Life 2 when it came out, had no internet access, bam, can’t play Half-Life 2. Waiting for it for forever, bought it, and now we can’t play it.
A while later, in more modern times, I moved to a new apartment. We had no internet there. I figured I could play Titan Quest, which I’ve recently bought on Steam for some reason. But, Steam decided it didn’t shut down correctly last time, so, no TQ for me. This is not an issue an SP game should ever have. One of the advantages of SP games is that you can play them everywhere without having to worry about some connection/login/maintenance issue or other. Steam undermines that.
I know, crazy, but some people don’t have very great internet access, some have data caps, and some of us get the occasional lightning strike that fries a piece of hardware. I like an SP game to play when this happens and I prefer my options to be wider than WarCraft II and Heretic sometimes.
Not being able to play something you paid for, something that requires no internet access, because a service platform decided you are untrustworthy is pretty jarring and makes one not want to purchase a game on a service platform ever again. “Why the hell did I buy this on Steam?” was going through my mind.
Steam doesn’t worry me that much these days because all titles are preserved in other places, Steam doesn’t have a monopoly on digital distribution, fortunately. If Steam WAS the only platform you could get certain games on, I’d be very concerned, though, because I have seen enough distribution platforms that, 10-20 years later, fall down, and now the game you paid for is gone. I don’t consider most games I have on Steam as games I actually physically own, just like I know my WoW sub can go poof.
Note that, among other things, this kind of thing only matters to people who like to play old games. I still play games from 1996. There are many players who do not touch games that are older than 3 years. They will never have this issue, and for them, service platforms make a lot of sense and pose no concern. Especially given how many genres have been moving to multiplayer.
But I thought this was a Grim Dawn forum, not a Path of Exile forum.
That might just be your perspective; Unless there’s a poll done which includes a fair sample size, any number offered here is assumption and based off personal experiences.
on the other hand we still don’t have a drm free and playable version of the game. so for now it’s all just more empty words to us. more promises that might or might not be broken. this is the only fact we have. so thinking anything else is again… optimistic and also a bit naive.
Agree about DRM-free, disagree about the playable part. It’s playable. There are 10K+ people playing it right now last I check. If there’s a DRM, it is not hindering its playability mostly.
On a side note, I am curious that some reasons for supporting DRM-free is that there’s no DRM back in the good old days. That’s not true. DRM has always existed, either in the form of codes hidden in manuals and maps, or anti-piracy code.
And if someone wants to do a DRM-free release, perhaps the company will best define what it means by “DRM-free”. Apparently, there are some many variants of it. So far I have see:
- No ownership check (i.e, Steam)
- No automatic updates (i.e, GOG)
- No anti-piracy checks (“You might lose money however I resent the fact that you are treating me like a criminal”)
- No form of sign up or registration
- No link to any third party services (no Steam, no GoG)
Honestly, there are so many permutations out there.
GoG is DRM free, they just distribute raw game files.
Wow. For everyone saying honesty is the best policy, you guys are really not showing it.
Everyone on this forum must be a master entrepreneur that makes no mistakes in life…
Shit happens. He is doing the best he can. Give him a break.
Yeah, what’s this with people who want DRM-free and are willing to log into a HumbleBundle account to download their DRM-free files, but are not willing to log into a GoG account to download those files? I don’t get that…
eNTi can’t get a break takes lots of hits lol pif paf bam bang!
Now I agree with this.
But something has not really being considered maybe.
This is something I consider a mistake worldwide no matter the business sector, big, small, hell in friendships even, love and in life in general.
The Kickstarter…
What you mean right here as I (we?) can infer: in the best case > original backers (X% of all time unit sales of GD) are worth to me and to the organization the same as all buyers (XXX% of all time unit sales of GD) and I can prove this with basic math (true you can).
Now the “blunt” case > original backers of the DRM-free GD (0.00X% for example of all time unit sales of GD) “” “” “” are worth less it’s the minority of the minority, look @ this excel chart.
OMG.
In life the people that grant you trust and capital to launch (or hell a friend that helps you [moral support etc.] years and years before you become someone if we talk about friendship “value” XD) > the “worth” isn’t the same or hell it sure isn’t less. You will not go far or even stay afloat if you dismiss this with an Annual Report. In skyscraper high deals if someone after success dismisses the ones that have helped him the most and throws them in with the mass of customers that he now has, this can be very dangerous even. Some people don’t accept this it is their reputation now in how they will “take care” of this business. Also other friends/allies you have you will then turn to them for help because now you need it you in precarious state… but they gonna be like sorry bro… I mean look how you dealt with those that propulsed you… So now I take all those risks and when you triumph again I can guess how you will thank me/treat me.
random story time
A guy in 1999 goes on AltaVista. He can’t find good stuff to copy/paste for his school research to get 100%. He lands on Google by chance. He like lol what this troll name XD let’s give it a try though > he finds > he copy/paste > he get 100% mark and teacher stick a star sticker. Now he takes a massive risk he like I will help these guys their engine is above & beyond other search methods I want to be able to get my 100% @ University too. He sells all his stuff he sell his car now he walks to school and takes the bus to the movie theater. Today the shares he paid a “tiny” in today’s context are worth Billions. Now a guy in 2016 comes to Google he like guys take my 750 000$ USD I believe in you do I get 3B$ now he asks the founders? They are like LOL no who are you man? This is only for the guys that have helped us when I was sleeping and working in my dad garage I didn’t even had to eat I put it all in the company then some guys gave some capital then I made it out of my dad’s garage he was pissed he had trouble getting his motorcycle out when we had all those wires in there. end of story.
It has been mentioned before that KS is in a legal void > you not a “buyer” only > you not a donor > but you not an investor (even if you are $$$ for the same product 500% or 5000% of the product price etc.). Now if you treat them with the same importance because well you sort-of can if you want and you justify with math, this maybe could be a mistake.
The only reason Crate has been saved in this and medierra is still respected by some who wouldn’t in any other case is > GD is actually fantastic. If Crate had shipped a product that was average, meh, IGN review gives 6.0 “if you looking for a fun ARPG experience I recommend TitanQ because it better and cheaper” and the situation that this post is about happened > total war!!!
Now if you say you will take legal action to someone and you tell him what you will do it means obviously you do not want / will not go ahead. You just want some measures. Kickstarter being a legal void doesn’t mean you can do what you want with the backers or deal with them like they worth the same as the guy buying GD on March 10 2016 but the backer can’t play yours without any consequence. The crazy thing is after I consulted because I’m not a legal idc about that to know what could be done the finer things and how, something I wouldn’t have gone ahead with and no one else in here I presume because we like the game and Crate is small but they actually REAL HONEST and it is lame for someone to bring them down because they didn’t have a PR dumbass and medierra you’ve been honest beyond measure :)… the crazy thing is some guys called and wanted to go ahead because they didn’t even care about Crate they wanted to see how KS and the “branching” industry would react (this would’ve been very important from a legal [national and international] path for many things that idc about really), they would’ve been the real target of this Crate just collateral damage - anyway I tell them wtf XD NO.
So the thing some people mean in all this is that maybe medierra/ the Crate organization should reconsider their point of view on backers and their “relative” worth that is, and that should perhaps rightly be attributed to them by the organization. I have tried to illustrate, for the good of everyone in here; not to do damage or flame lol; that some guys in here might be undervalued (on a “moral” way - on a real world $$$ worth way - and on a legal way) and that while I believe it fair to all get our GD at the same time the thing that should be clear and not flamed lolol is that if someone gets it before > the backers are “entitled” to have it before the general public and not the opposite also take note I said the backers not the pre-purchasers or the guys that pre-order. We understand what you went through we understand the mistakes we understand you doing everything you can and we patient, but I’m not convinced we should/are be worth the same as the 10 March 2016 guy. Reconsider this for the future!