Bat + Ghoul meta

[sir_spanksalot]

That chaos AAR and Cyclone have more phys res than Octavius warlord (the last of the thousand nerfs to it was that very phys res) and so do all occultist based casters.

I disagree. It’s not a function of phys res. And I’d like to think that the builds I’ve posted are very evident of that.

Casters tend to do well because they have unparalleled AoE clear, meaning that they can do away with mobs which would otherwise CC-lock a build the moment they spawn.

This concept is again mirrored in top tier ranged builds like valdun and dagallon.

And this is where melee builds just fail miserably. For simplicity’s sake, I will ignore EoR and 2H blade arc as these are melee builds WITH aoe.

Case and point - https://www.grimtools.com/calc/O2G46d6V <— @ya1: This cabalist
^This build still can get rekt in (3+1) if I try to use acid purge. But the moment I stop focusing on the seal granted skill, and focus solely on bone harvest, it becomes fine.

Likewise, this is also true for my tainted flames FoI deceiver with 33% phys res.

Allagast

I think the mod to DA could use a slight tap with the nerf hammer if you ask me. Either decrease the lightning damage on it by 100%, or remove the +1s duration modifier.

Anyway, to the point: it does not change the fact that ALL those casters are still using adcth and if they don’t have wpn dmg on their mains then they use Stormfire/Chain Lightning

This I agree. As I’ve always said, the problem lies with CC. It honestly just takes 3 runs in 170 with each of the build archetypes to understand what I mean

Because I honestly doubt that players who are dissing bat/ghoul meta have done so.

now is one of the strongest thanks to not so apparent previously mega synergy between Censure and Maiven. Mage hunters take ~65% total damage of what a dervish or a trickster would take ALWAYS

Yes and no. I think what makes MH so damn good is the combination of conversion and vigor.

Try playing MH without these 2 things, and your damage reduction will count for

Because it’s not like you can’t get DR from the necro class, and it’s a mastery which is struggling.

The only other way around this problem IS to stack crazy amounts of adcth, but this can only be done with vit builds or PB builds. Hence why dark one’s and PB specs sit comfortably in the “top tier” list.

AoC is the weakest.

Lol. it’s perpetual and passive. It’s the strongest. Period.

@ya1: Mate, look at that pyran death in that video. No amount of phys res, damage reduction, or damage absorption is ever going to prevent that. There’s something seriously wrong with the stackable debuffs + CCs in the ultra late game.

In the same breath, I can also understand if Z wishes not to balance the game around a small handful of min/maxers

[sir_spanksalot]

Just want to add this in case Z reads this post (which he probably will)

I think allagast’s mod to DA could use a slight tap with the nerf hammer if you ask me. Either decrease the lightning damage on it by 100%, or remove the +1s duration modifier.

If this were to come to pass, then a teensy buff to SBoE or maelstrom would be nice so allagast vindicators don’t suffer unnecessarily hard

[BOG]

Casters tend to do well because they have unparalleled AoE clear, meaning that they can do away with mobs which would otherwise CC-lock a build the moment they spawn.

The main reason for casters doing well is “fumble/impaired aim” mechanics. Melee/ranged might have a bit higher “paper DPS”, but it doesnt matter since they miss 40% of time, and casters dont.

[BOG]

Lol. it’s perpetual and passive. It’s the strongest. Period.

Soulfire is also literally perpetual and passive, and even has a bit higher value…

MH has insane bonus to damage and CC resists with Maiven & Vigor.

^This build still can get rekt in (3+1) if I try to use acid purge. But the moment I stop focusing on the seal granted skill, and focus solely on bone harvest, it becomes fine.

No wonder i’d say all item-granted main-damagedealer skills are far subpar to class ones, maybe, with an exception of weapon-based default attacks aka Runic Bolts.

[sir_spanksalot]

Soulfire is also literally perpetual and passive, and even has a bit higher value…

I’m sorry, I was under the impression that we are comparing DR sources accessible to all builds. If you wanted to use soulfire, you need to use EoR perpetually.

RE, LoE, censure…these things don’t have such a limitation. Don’t think it’s a far comparison to make.

“fumble/impaired aim” mechanics

Unlike AA builds, casters need to worry about energy regenration which also does prevent you from going all out on damage. I think it’s pretty fair IMO.

AA builds also benefit far more from adcth.

Not to mention that one could simply reposition away from fumble pools…

I’m afraid we’ll have to agree to disagree here. In my eyes, it’s the AoE which casters pack which are currently making stand perform heads and shoulders above melee builds.

AAR, grenado, canister bomb, drain essence, PB, wind devil, stun jacks…

This is literally the best defence against stackable debuffs and CC of mobs.

No wonder i’d say all item-granted main-damagedealer skills are far subpar to class ones

That’s why seal granted skills are constantly buffed, eh?

EDIT: Also, obviously the GT above isn’t focused AROUND acid purge. It’s just auxillary damage. But trying to maximize that damage source leads to more deaths. I’m better off just using acid purge sparingly.

[ya1]

What’s the problem to get enemy damage reduction? Dervish has it, BTW. And Trickster can get it with some item, for example.
Aura of Censure isnt that strong even. (…) AoC is the weakest.

Nonsense.

I disagree. It’s not a function of phys res. And I’d like to think that the builds I’ve posted are very evident of that.

Casters tend to do well because they have unparalleled AoE clear,

Then how do you explain the demise of Venomblade? It actually half caster with excellent AoE which is evidenced by caster-tier clear times always best among all melee. Just can’t survive two hits sometimes, now. No AoE can protect you from that. Dmg input raised dramatically. If you have no means to reduce it you can’t survive. Low phys res means you not only fail to reduce it but actually have it multiplied (when debuffed).

Builds you posted are many, don’t know which you have in mind. Mage hunters got redux in all colors and shapes. Occultists have 12% as a freebie, and often absorb from Possession. Light’s Defender vindicators don’t need phys res because they’re swimming in armor, health and adcth. There are exceptions to every rule. But the rule is the rule: phys res rules.

By the way the AoE clearing potential means nothing in SR80+. It’s all about redux, absorb, cc res.

conversion and vigor.

Try playing MH without these 2 things, and your damage reduction will count for

Ofc there are other things. Cc res. Bunch of utilities like Seal and Null. As you mentioned, offense, specifically great oa/crit synergy between arcanist base values and inquisitor’s Deadly Aim. There are many things but that Censure+Maiven is imo the most oupie. What do you count for shit. It will do what it does: reduce dmg input whether you’re cc-ed or not because they’re auras.

The main reason for casters doing well is “fumble/impaired aim” mechanics.

Yada yada.

No wonder i’d say all item-granted main-damagedealer skills are far subpar to class ones, maybe, with an exception of weapon-based default attacks aka Runic Bolts.

Sometimes you sound like you never actually played the game outside of your thunderstruck green hunter of kings. Clue: check out a recent excellent WoP+Obliteration build. Or Winter King builds.

[sir_spanksalot]

Preface: Not trying to argue, just trying to discuss with you <3

Then how do you explain the demise of Venomblade?

Nerfs to ascension is one, nerfs to set, and general bad state acid is in. <— That’s my guess

But honestly, you would know best here so I’ll concede to your empirical knowledge.

Maybe what did kill the Dervish* (@ya1: typo on my end) was phys res, however I don’t think phys res is the end-all-be-all of defensive stats. Even with seemingly adequate defensive stats as shown by my cabalist, stacking phys res is may not ensure a build’s survivability.

We need to look at everything together.

By the way the AoE clearing potential means nothing in SR80+. It’s all about redux, absorb, cc res.

Of course. But past a certain point in CR, you just need to thank up. Nothing else is going to survive there. So I’m personally referring to SR 75 & cr 170 here

It will do what it does: reduce dmg input whether you’re cc-ed or not because they’re auras.

Of course. I’m not saying that it won’t. I’m just saying that if you looked at my cabalist with damage reduction, high armor/phys res, and insane adcth, you’re still going to have a hard time surviving.

I’m not saying that defensive stats aren’t necessary if you come loaded to the gills with CC-res, I’m saying that what used to be considered ample in terms of defensive stats now mean given the current CC/debuff fiesta.

In the current iteration of the game, it must mean something if arcane harmony is slowly, but surely, becoming BiS pants despite the absence of phys res on it.

In other words, CC-res has become just as vital a defensive stat as phys res, damage reduction/absorption, etc.

However, stats provided by:

• the current pool of items
• Devotions
• Masteries

are sill insufficient relative to the increase in debuffs/CC enemies now bring to the fight.

Because the MH offers all these things in abundance, it has become one of the strongest class combination.

Censure+Maiven is imo the most oupie

This is quite true. MH’s are surprisingly resilient, though I wouldn’t want to see nerfs to either class, (maybe just the items supporting the MH class) as it’s not as though the arcanist OR the inquisitor is that “OP” when paired with other masteries.

@ya1: If crate is adamant on keeping very cheesy/cheap things like disrupt pools around, then I would like to see the max cap of less essential CC-res stats like trap, disrupt, etc. be raised to a level similar to that of nemeses.

[ya1]

Nerfs to ascension is one, nerfs to set, and general bad state acid is in. <— That’s my guess

But honestly, you would know best here so I’ll concede to your empirical knowledge.

Maybe what did kill the WH was phys res, however I don’t think phys res is the end-all-be-all of defensive stats. Even with seemingly adequate defensive stats as shown by my cabalist, stacking phys res is may not ensure a build’s survivability.

We need to look at everything together.

Actually, Venomblade witch hunter does ok. And it is exactly thanks to phys res + absorb. Dervish struggles like hell. Despite the dmg. Despite better da and and armor and (arguably) better res.

I don’t know which cabalist you have in mind.

I’m saying that what used to be considered ample in terms of defensive stats now mean given the current CC/debuff fiesta.

Well yeah ok. This is true. Evidenced by the SR set absolutism.

If crate is adamant on keeping very cheesy/cheap things like disrupt pools around, then I would like to see the max cap of less essential CC-res stats like trap, disrupt, etc. be raised to a level similar to that of nemeses.

But what good a max cap will do if most builds struggle to get even close to the cap?

Also, I’m not trying to say nerf mage hunters. Just that I’m kinda butthurt that what nightblades have for defense - the dodge - pales in comparison.

[sir_spanksalot]

Agreed on NB. Scaling on dodge on shadow dance is too poor, and enemies hit too hard for you to be able to do a dodge tank. So what if I have 90% dodge if the one hit that gets me one shots me?

I’m not sure what crates intention was for shadow dance, but currently it’s being used more for its DA sand trap res.

Regarding overcaps…you’re right. It’ll only benefit builds using arcane harmony or grey magi/windshears. Such a change wouldn’t help much.

Which is why I’m suggesting that crate at least consider this should they be adamant on keeping the status quo.

Imo, one of the worst mutators you can get now is th one which lowers player CC-res. This is especially cruel for builds like the pyromancer.

[ya1]

In naked crucible cc is hell. Most builds can only clear it by kiting. I actually started using Leathery hide on infiltrators. Or Wraithwalkers, if you can imagine that.

[banana_peel]

Some things to add here, if i may

Not to mention that one could simply reposition away from fumble pools…

Except most of the times you can’t. The problem with fumble, disrupt and all other pools (as with all the enemy abilities if Cruci for that matter) is their number and AoE. Single crab can cover half of the screen with it’s bullshit, same goes for Grava - his pools are huge, they move pretty fast and have long duration.

IMO this is one of the primary reasons nonmeta melee builds have shit times. IF you can’t facetank everything all the time, you spend too much time to reposition - to constantly find a spot on the map clear of bullshit. And you have to WAIT for enemies to come to you. You can’t just jump back into the fight from another angle because fumble, disrupt pools or million blood pools of Kuba cover everything around their current position. As a caster you don’t care for any of that.

now is one of the strongest thanks to not so apparent previously mega synergy between Censure and Maiven. Mage hunters take ~65% total damage of what a dervish or a trickster would take ALWAYS

I want to elaborate here. %absorb itself, in combination with %DR, is not anything special. It’s the last stage before flat absorb meaning it acts like similar to %net health. An Arcanist with 20% absorb and 10k health equals 12.5k health Shaman with no absorb. There is no particular synergy here. % on top of %.

BUT flat absorb changes everything. 430 from the seal, applied to Arcanist acts like 537 applied to a char without %absorb, i. e. steep increasing returns of dmg reduction. Without flat absorb it’s basically equal to more health because another flat source - armor - is in earlier stage of calculation.

So what if I have 90% dodge if the one hit that gets me one shots me?

I actually made a dodge meme with almost 100% dodge and 80% deflect. And came to blunt realization. Crucible is a spell fest. Those beefy guys, Kuba, Grava, Reaper, are latent spellcasters If you have a suboptimal spec and you stand on a seal (one spot) you will die regardless of if you take melee/projectile hits or not.

[sir_spanksalot]

430 from the seal, applied to Arcanist acts like 537 applied to a char without %absorb

I think we are all familiar with the power of seal, but not many builds run 22/12 seal, and I for one don’t bother getting it on glass cannons. And these cannons are still way tankier than most of my other specs.

Maivens/AOC is also different from raw health since they never get depelted

[banana_peel]

430 was just an example. The point is flat is “multiplied” by %absorb.

Maivens/AOC is also different from raw health since they never get depelted

In the game where you die from 100-0 dmg spikes and heal back to 100 in 1 sec i think it’s safe to say it’s equal.

[sir_spanksalot]

Not exactly. Look at ya’s pyrans death. It’s qctually kinda dunny

[x1x1x1x2]

Single crab can cover half of the screen with it’s bullshit

Tbf wave 152 first line of action is always killing the crab. He’ll only get at most 1 fumble pool on. The problem is on other waves where the disruptor is random and you don’t know who did what, in which agree with what you’re saying.

[ya1]

An Arcanist with 20% absorb and 10k health equals 12.5k health Shaman with no absorb. There is no particular synergy here. % on top of %.

Okay. so you got debuffed like a whore and 15k crit is coming your way. You eat 15k dmg on a trickster and 15000x0.65-400(Seal)=9350 on a mage hunter. Even less if that crit was elemental (Null). Dunno about you but I’m teaming up with the mage hunter!

[Rhylthar]

You eat 15k dmg on a trickster

Not on Bleeding Trickster.

[banana_peel]

Tbf wave 152 first line of action is always killing the crab.

Totally. I’m just saying that abilities like this aren’t the type of “move two inches and you are good”. If you let stuff live in Cruci they will paint the whole floor with their colors. They are obsessed with it!

[sir_spanksalot]

@banana_peel: A good way to think about it is to ask yourself if you’d rather have 100%absorp or 100% more hp

[Norzan]

Imo, one of the worst mutators you can get now is th one which lowers player CC-res.

Pretty sure this isn’t a thing. You have mutator with CC res affecting the player but it’s one that gives CC res to them and not take away. Only monsters have one that reduce their CC res.