Buffs v nerfs discussion - again

[Ricardi0]

Any buffs/nerfs was never actually a problem for me, at first after reading pathnotes i can be a little bit salty if something i like to play was nerfed, but after few deep breathes i can understand why this nerfs needs to be done (and this nerfs also happens because i like to play meta builds that always bring up attention of devs). Almost every build after nerf have almost the same perfomances and your character have almost the same power level feeling.
The only problem i see with any changes is removing some builds identity by changing conduits, removing/adding conversions and etc, when after changes builds drastickly reduces they power or even impossible to recreate (like reflects builds )

[Archmagister]

and thus you get “whining”.

I!
DO NOT!
WHINE!

The only problem i see with any changes is removing some builds identity by changing conduits, removing/adding conversions and etc, when after changes builds drastickly reduces they power or even impossible to recreate (like reflects builds )

Tooootally thank you!

[Maska322]

Remember when cindertouch lost conversion?

[Rakso]

There is a difference between being powerful and brokenly powerful and between intended and not intended . If something is clearly brokenly OP then you can expect Crate to fix it and bring it in line to a more reasonable state. I don’t subscribe to the theory that just because time investment this unintended broken thing should continue to be broken. That makes as much sense as the people that say “it’s a single player game so it should only ever be all buffs all the time, never Nerf!”

Sorry, I didn’t catch the context at first. Was busy replying to others then. I agree with you. That’s exactly what I meant to say. A powerful build. not a broken one. But time invested into grinding for most minmaxed setup of affixes is definately what makes the build better than it originally should be, unlike when using items where only a small part of their stats fit you, instead of most, or do open the possibility for other more suitable versions of purple items to be used, which previously could not be, due to the lack of capped out resistances which would unable for such possibility to open up at first, as example.
I still tho subscribe to this, that time invested into grinding (according to how the game itself interpretates it / let’s forget of stashing) should be rewarding for the build, and make it comparably better than it’s version that uses only purple items(the entry one), but that scenario case is honestly way further away in being a realistic case, than the case of the lower entry level which full legendary builds present.
Still, I do agree that outright broken stuff should not exist and problems around it solved, even through nerfs.

[powbam]

and thus you get “whining”.

I!
DO NOT!
WHINE!

[Archmagister]

!Moar!

xrdlfckbrsfx…

[Archmagister]

Let me just put this into perspective again:

Piloting skills make builds seem a lot stronger than they are.

If you consider this in your nerfing campaigns, I do have nothing to complain about.

[grey-maybe]

Actually…to be safe, I just wouldn’t ask Powbam for his opinion on anything.

…creating a hostile environment for other users.

[Ceno]

because people are idiots… they focus on the one nerf that affects them not the 90-95% buffs overall

Zantai actually killed my AFK build tho, trash game confirmed.

[Norzan]

Zantai has said to me in private that Ceno’s builds are fair game when it comes to killing.

[Ceno]

Zantai has said me in private that Ceno’s builds are fair game when it comes to killing.

[Norzan]

Okay, i lied about Zantai talking with me in private.

Rest is true though.

[Willnoword]

Any buffs/nerfs was never actually a problem for me, at first after reading pathnotes i can be a little bit salty if something i like to play was nerfed, but after few deep breathes i can understand why this nerfs needs to be done (and this nerfs also happens because i like to play meta builds that always bring up attention of devs). Almost every build after nerf have almost the same perfomances and your character have almost the same power level feeling.

Wish I could do the same . Some nerfs are still so silly and without any logic behind them (like Valguur’s Sigils of Consumption).

[WhiteWalker]

I am very happy with this game. Thank you moderators, creators, farmers, Belgians and other people in the world. Have a wonderful day!

[Shadowpast]

I don’t even…

Lolwut?

The “whining” comes from a place of a vacuum where as a person wants to build a certain way without compromise and they do so without looking at a broader scope of the game. They want “their” build to clear X or clear X in Y time or less and when it doesn’t they pitchfork it up and come to the forum. Also, “whining” doesn’t make the complaint legit. Additionally, the complaint is usually constructed as such a complaint and not so much as a data gathered suggestion to change something.

I would be very hard pressed to find substantial amounts of “nerfs” compared to buffs in the history of this game. However this might be biased on my part since I totally meme build.

Sure, somethings could change but we may be beyond that point and if you remove benchmarks set forth by high end players, GD is actually in a good state when comparing it side by side (problems only) to other popular arpgs.

As for piloting…I mean with enough dedication and practice, I could see someone getting content done in good times and it does have to be a somewhat lose factor when determining changes.

In closing, (I’ve stated this is multiple threads), backlash to unpopular changes could be mitigated somewhat if the rationale behind the change was given, whether it is agreed with or not. Cause honestly I am still confused about the Cindertouch change and I really want to make a constructive thread about shields but don’t take screen shots or videos to back up my concerns/suggestions.

[Gnomish_Inquisition]

think it might be worth to mention, that if someone thinks Zantai nerfs and “balance” the game around builds like “this”
https://www.grimtools.com/calc/nZoygpk2
https://www.grimtools.com/calc/nZoyqqk2
https://www.grimtools.com/calc/aZqMYPpZ
https://www.grimtools.com/calc/nZoygEl2
https://www.grimtools.com/calc/p25az7l2
https://www.grimtools.com/calc/D2pr76eZ
then that’s probably not the case and you likely don’t have much to worry about

i’m guessing there is a reason he repeatedly refers to some stuff as “fantasy greens”, and i’m willing to bet “fantasy balancing” doesn’t play much in as a factor for him, - unless we were maybe talking a single or two easily obtainable MIs that suddenly makes something broken

[Maya]

Looks at people complaining about stuff
Sees that no one is talking about Unstable Anomaly Blightfiend Nerf that was caused by SR performance and not Crucible

Shakes head and leaves

[Altronbaz]

Sees that no one is talking about Unstable Anomaly Blightfiend Nerf that was caused by SR performance and not Crucible

UA blightfiend was my favorite build I played Duskdeep’s ghoul acid blightfiend ritualist with almost 5 days playtime on it. It was soul-crushing to come online on patch day and see it was performing subpar at most.
I wasnt doing high SR and had minimal interest in crucible at the time, I just ran around farming items and mats for different build projects for weeks. now im looking for a new pet build to get the spark back.

[thepowerofmediocrity]

because people are idiots… they focus on the one nerf that affects them not the 90-95% buffs overall

This is a highly distorted way of saying things. I’d estimate that roughly 80% of the buffs in patches are in items + skills that were completely trash before, if not outright memes, while the nerfs negatively affected established builds. It took, what 4 years to finally make Summon Hellhound a good skill to build around, and roughly 3.5 years to make the Lost Souls set actually viable in practice. On the other hand, it only takes one set of nerfs to ruin what was otherwise a perfectly usable set/skill, and in cases like Cyclone, it might take away one of the only usable sets for weaker classes like Elementalist.

Overall, I have to say a huge thank-you to whoever implemented the patch discussion threads and @adoomgod for doing the equipment balancing threads, as the game is much, much better compared to what FG was at release.

Now as for this obsession with buffs versus nerfs. Crucible clear times used to be 10 minutes. Now they are pushing 4. To suggest that we are somehow punishing builds is just hilarious to me.

Builds that used to be fine are now underperforming almost exclusively because the meta has power-creeped to ever faster clear times. Where once a 6 minute Crucible clear was top tier, it is now trash and how can the devs not buff it?!

I know this is said a lot, but movement runes really shook up how fast gameplay gets. Digging up what I could from threads that weren’t updated plus Banned_Lee’s video page, good Crucible times in the early FG era 2ish years ago were roughly around the 6 minute mark, with top players going towards the low 5 minute mark. I mean, going from low 5 to low 4 is still a remarkable power creep, but as the game stabilized and people better understood what defensive thresholds they had to reach to stand against monsters like Korvaak and Kaisan + other Nemeses, that sort of improvement is not unheard of.

Usually the builds that are screaming for buffs are for either glassy classes like Saboteur or for off-key combinations like Elemental Forcewave or things like Elemental Lightning which get eaten by Grava’s debuffs. Some archetypes really do need more help than what appears “reasonable” for the sake of buffing.

[Maya]

Sees that no one is talking about Unstable Anomaly Blightfiend Nerf that was caused by SR performance and not Crucible

UA blightfiend was my favorite build I played Duskdeep’s ghoul acid blightfiend ritualist with almost 5 days playtime on it. It was soul-crushing to come online on patch day and see it was performing subpar at most.
I wasnt doing high SR and had minimal interest in crucible at the time, I just ran around farming items and mats for different build projects for weeks. now im looking for a new pet build to get the spark back.

Yeah, it was rather fun to watch 4 of them going around exploding in green mist around the screen. Kind of reminiscent of Corpse Explosion from Diablo2, but without needing Corpses. Without being able to use Ghol’s Set anymore since you can’t get enough CDR, it became a bit too weak that you are better off going for something else