New thread since you lot drifted way off the Venomblade topic.
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Thank you bae!
Then because it is a transitive relation, ācampaign is a jokeā too, right? How many times do I have to prove you people wrong?
coming up with unique builds past normal AoM or at the very highest, Elite Loghorrean is plain impossible for gear reasons. Only difference is stashers who get to craft SR set without setting foot in sr60, but really unique self-founds (and by corollary, actual build diversity) stop at that point.
We are talking about end game challenges here boromonokli. 
Though I think it would have been better to phrase it as, āFor an end game challenge, SR 75 is a joke.ā
And what would NOT be a joke? A purely, mathematical stat-check with RNG thrown in that prints out an answer and gives you a reward or lets you try again?
If you want a challenge, Iāll gladly send you the caster sabo I linked in the other thread. Because usually challenge is something that can be overcome but is difficult to do so, not something oneās mathematically locked out of or given a pass.
How is one āmathematicallyā locked out of SR 75
Because an endgame challenge expecting a baseline offense and defense is a bad thing now. Apparently.
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I am too stupid to use Camera abuse. This means: All my builds did 65 to 75 (some more, some less) without it. Still a joke?
Iām not even talking about SR65 or any other specific shards. Iām talking about the whole SR experience, regardless of the build and the piloting skills of the player.
Again, it doesnāt matter. People will use camera abuse in SR1 if they have to.
Iād like SR to be enjoyable for any player with any build. How deep they are actually able to go is besides the point. Aggro abuse is an issue from SR1 onwards and should be adressed, either by redesigning the boss chunks or by furthermore lowering the RNG factor. If nothing is done, people will keep using exploits, thatās all Iām saying.
Cameraggrobuse is obviously a clunky mechanic and should be removed, no doubt about that. Alongside, boss rooms could be toned down a little. Because multiple Nemesis or even strong bosses like roguelike ones with mutators can be impossible for most builds (and then weāre back to the point of which shards should be āeasyā to reach, which are hard or almost impossible). But something still has to be done about cameraggrobuse.
Pardon my directness, I do not mean to cause offence: It seems to me that you are the one who is confused about the whole SR experience.
Because SR IS meant to be a challenge which forces players to both theorycraft and pilot to the best of their abilities. And, up to SR 65, it is a challenge which is designed to be be realistically conquerable by the serious self-found player without the use of camera abuse.
Which brings me to this point.
Why is this besides the point? Why should this be besides the point?
To put it bluntly - if you canāt clear SR 65 without resorting to exploits, perhaps the issue lies with you, and not how the arena is designed.
Agreed. There are 2 ways to go about this:
- As youāve pointed out - redesign the entire SR experience which seems unlikely to me
- Get rid of the exploit - which would be an unpopular move.
As to where I standā¦I personally donāt care what crate does with SR.
Iāve never enjoyed it much. My only complain - and this is an assumption on my end, so apologies in advance - is that the very nature of this exploit exempts many SR builds from the harsh scrutiny of the all-seeing eye 
Which is why rebalances tend to affect crucible-focused crafters more.
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I see the spark I dropped about the camera trick has turned into a wildfire.
P.S. I proclaim myself Camera Abuse King lol
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Aggro abuse is a necessity, while camera abuse is like using viagra 
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Bingo! All it takes is a formula that normalizes these insane stackable buffs and debuffs. It takes a LOT of effort to get overcapped resistances and high DA on your build. Just to see those getting rendered useless in SR? How is that an intended behaviour? Might as well bring back the old DA mechanics to mitigate the randomness of SR. But no, we didnāt like that kind of balance. So what kind of balance is there now, when thereās literally no point in making tanky builds. Much better to just go full dps and wipe out the mobs before they get a chance to debuff you.
Iām not a fan of the camera thing, but I will say that GD is pretty kind to overcaps. Many games use diminishing returns at soft cap. GD does not and imho this makes that a bit of a weak argument (imho). Most builds can get those overcaps via juggling, if they really want.
I think itās the other way round
You seem to forget that not all players enter SR on Ultimate with a level 100 build. SR is available after beating Warden Krieg, itās not an exclusive endgame mode. Plenty of people play SR while leveling. They might only be able to beat SR25 on Normal or whatever, it doesnāt matter. Those players should be able to have fun too, and getting destroyed at random isnāt fun.
Since you keep bringing up SR65: SR50 is very often much harder than SR65 due to RNG and boss room design. I and many other players have experienced this with all kinds of builds and playstyles. The āyouāre doing it wrongā argument doesnāt really cut it.
I do care because Iām enjoying SR, except the boss rooms, which are more often either a joke or a PITA than anything between.
You and I are very different players. Iirc you are a competitive Crucible player, 150-170 in under x minutes is your game.
For me itās all about āThe Journeyā. That includes SR, which is a part of the campaign. Applying Crucible logic to SR doesnāt really work I think.
Iām glad you did! I want SR to be the best experience it can be for everyone, not only endgame players. Making people aware of this issue and the resulting feedback might help Crate fixing it. Only 4-6 weeks until the big update drops, hopefully thereās still time left to fix the exploit and do some rebalancing.
Itās beside the point because if your build canāt get past SR 35 youāll still have the same shitty experience with boss rooms that you get at 65.
SR isnāt just a do-or-die challenge mode. You make it sound like every time you play it players should be pushing their builds to the limit but you can choose how challenging you want it to be. A lot of time Iāll play builds at an SR level lower than max thatās challenging-but-not-impossible, that means boss rooms that wonāt spawn impossible to beat combos (at least the majority of the time) and where making errors will mean Iāll die sometimes. That could be SR 50 or SR 75 and you get decent loot at any of those SRās. I level and equip all my chars the normal way, which takes ages, and I just want to play those endgame characters basically. Campaign is a joke and I donāt like crucible that much. SR offers campaign style play but with adjustable difficulty.
Even then, the boss rooms are just shit anyway. The preceding shards are nowhere near the challenge level of the boss rooms so you get easy shards then impossible boss rooms. If you were to push further youād find that the pre-boss shards can get challenging but boss rooms can be rng impossible.
Not getting rid of the exploit would be unpopular too. 
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I disagree. You need at least 30-50 overcap across the board to not get easily n()()bed. You also need this overcap to be achievable without the help of toggle auras or potions. Why? Because, say hello to the arcane mobs! There are bosses that debuff your resistances by 50. There are many normal heroes that can do the same. Heck, I have a number of recorded videos where my life saving passives got triggered in Normal SR shard 1 in chunks 1-3, with the following stats:
Armor 3500
All resistances 80-87 +30-50% overcap
DA 2800
Shield + Obelisk + Behemoth + Tree of life + Tortoise
1000 passive regen + 4500 with procs
Thatās with a single mutator!
Now, of course, this doesnāt happen often. This build is capable of reaching high SR deathless. But due to the randomness of SR that comes in the form of stackable debuffs, 1 in 50 SR or crucible runs can be your last if you are playing HC. No matter the skill level, no matter the gear optimization. Thatās why Iām forced to stack every possible defensive layer on top of 2-3 saving grace passives, just to make sure I donāt RIP there. This means a Big loss of dps and still only good for the first few shards.
Unfortunately, too few people can relate to my pain at this point. SR experience in softcore is entirely different. You donāt even lose progress and can beat the timer even if you die 5 times in that boss room.
Maybe if I played SC instead, wouldnāt even post here. Would play high dps glassy builds only and accept the SR randomness as another means to spice up my gaming experience. But the HC mode is part of the game and I canāt simply accept the āItās HC, you are supposed to eventually RIPā attitude, instead of addressing a real issue. I can build a resilient char that can survive 1000 out 1000 FARMING runs in D2, D3, PoE, Titan Quest, Torchlight 1/2 and every other arpg game Iāve ever played. Itās only when you are pushing those deepest maps, high GR you can easily RIP. And thatās Great! Itās not the same in GD. Iāve seen people RIP in SR 20-35 using the tankiest builds out there. Iāve seen a lot people complain and quit due to this randomness by design. I know at least 3 people in real life who would never come back to GD unless this issue is fixed. I am here to stay, love GD and will keep playing HC for many more hundreds of hours. But I stand by my word, the linearly stackable incoming damage, debuff, buff mechanics is a bad design technique.
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You are right. I may very well be wrong. Which is why I appreciate this to-and-fro. <3
Okay. Hereās my question then - what are the factors which contribute to a playerās enjoyment in SR?
Thus far, Iāve been operating under the assumption that fun is associated with success. I.e. able to push deep into SR.
However, I promise you - if a player is getting killed before SR 75, there are things they can do to overcome this RNG.
For instance, do these players go to grim tools to look up the monster which killed them? Do they ask for help, or voice their questions?
Or perhaps they are doing everything right and simply lack the gear/levels to push past a certain point.
In either case, there are concrete steps the player can take to further succeed in SR. In either case, the journey you speak of still very much so exists.
If, however, every care has been taken to prepare for SR, and the challenge still proves insurmountable, then thereās validity to what youāre saying.
On the other hand, if the player jumps straight to the āblame game,ā and starts pointing fingers at the evil RNG, then thatās an opinion which shouldnāt be taken seriously.
EDIT: Do these players even know how each mutator affects them?
I will experiment with this tonight when Iām back from the library. Iāll take 3-4 of my specs which have cleared 80+ and run it through 50.
TBH, I just enjoy the theorycrafting. Crucible offers a medium through which I can visualize how well (or poorly) my creation fares.
@Contragor: Mate, exactly how badly do debuffs stack in SR? Because as it currently stands, itās more of a 1v1 situation, isnāt it?
Which differs vastly from crucible where Iāve seen 24 different debuffs on my character (i.e. 3 and a half rows 
)
EDIT:
Itās actually far worse than a linear increment. That can be dealt with.
E.g. I have 80% aether res.
I get debuffed to 60% aether res.
I am now taking twice the damage from aether attacks. (i.e. 20% vs 40%).
It is also for this very reason that increased max res by far the best defensive stat in the game. And when you stack it with stuff like multiple bubbles (e.g. crab, maivenās, etc.) you can actually get away with lower DA, armor, and phys res values.
I meant both SR and Crucible of course.
As for res, why do you think Iāve been throwing hundreds of ancient hearts at the blacksmith in Tyrant Hold for the past 2-3 weeks? Iām trying to get that level 75 amulet that gives both +4% max all res and an aura to bind the last devotion. For this run, Iām going to have 87-91% all res, 3500 armor, 3100DA, prismatic diamond, and seal of ancestry + Stonetreaders for aether, chaos, pierce and phys shielding lol.