I have to disagree based on my personal experiences with pretty much every “Top Tier” build that gets posted in the forums.
Hell, I started making my own builds because I couldn’t even finish Crucible with Sigatrev’s Pet builds.
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I feel you fell into rabit hole somewhere.
Some of your argument is valid with a point, but SR65 isn’t the top limit of SR. There are a lot of people who can achieve higher.
Also as someone who’s played your time, I would recommend:
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Build your own BD rather than just using someone else’s
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pursue higher levels in SR, to push the limits of your builds
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polish your BD to be more viable and adaptable to complicated mob/ boss groups and mutators, shard levels.
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grind for proper MIs with superb affixes to replace your legendaries items. so Your build can evolve with better OA, DA, ARMORE, RESIS. DPS, AS, CS, ETC.
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when all that’s done, seek out higher quality all of your gears,purple and green top numbers.
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Make sure your BD is viable to keep all celestrials WITH TOP KILL SPEED, true high level of SR (90+).
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Recycle with a different bd or different class.
Some time ago the Crucible doesn’t allow builds diversity - there were a lot of builds focused on DA and Armor stacking.
If that build is a glass cannon, as many top tier builds are, than the average player may not even be able to complete 170 crucible, or at least not consistently. And even the best players may even fail on occasion. These kinds of builds get nerfed, and it’s not that big of a deal for that build, but it hurts the more consistent builds that use some of the same gear and are not doing the glass cannon speed times.
Combination of both. But you can’t exclude player’s skills. I am behind John Smith for example in different builds between 25 seconds on fast builds to 1 minute or more on slower. At same time experienced players have gave me their builds and I have improve their times by 1 minute and sometimes even 2. So even slight mistakes how to control your AoE and which individual enemies to attack can lead to monster differences.
Sounds like Crucible high waves some time ago. BTW, I found the post about SR to be a test for build worth:
This only applies to tanky builds. I garauntee you that most players would have a hard time achieving consistent 170 clears with some of the specs I’ve played.
In terms of DPS and speed clears? You bet your ass that it’s the stats which IS carrying the build. However, that doesn’t mean that a player will be able to achieve consistent results with it.
At the end of the day Norzan, I keep offering you (and others) some of the glassy specs I personally play so that you can experience it firsthand for yourself.
Yes. But crucible’s difficulty was lowered. Just because this was true, doesn’t mean it still is true. Lots of other things have changed since then as well…e.g. mobility runes.
Regarding the second bit, mate…As long as aggro abuse remains a thing, SR will never be a good test for most builds (I say most because it IS an excellent test for tanky builds).
A good way to think of this is as such…
- Glass cannons are designed to barely (but consistently) survive being one-shotted.
- This means that how “glassy” a build can be is entirely dependent on the difficulty of the challenge being tackled.
In other words…the deeper you go into SR, the greater the enemy’s damage becomes. The greater the enemy’s damage becomes, the more resilient my spec needs to be
Since I can’t tweak my build to adjust for the increasing difficulty in the middle an SR run, I need to optimize my build based on how deep I’m planning on going.
In other words, a glass cannon optimized for efficient/quick 75-76 clears will not survive SR 85.
And a build optimized for sr 85 will be unable to clear 75-76 as quickly as the aforementioned glass cannon.
This is entirely different in crucible as there is more-or-less a limit to how difficult things get. Players can therefore design glass cannons accordingly
Norzan and I don’t see eye to eye often but we definitely do here. Word for word, as he said, character stats do the majority of the legwork and the comparison isn’t even funny. How much time do your “skills” shave off? 20 seconds? 30? 60? Now how much time does a less-strong build take in Crucible? 2 minutes? 3? 4?
Quit kidding yourselves. Player skills are an insignificant, unquantifiable metric and the argument hasn’t had any rationale behind it since it was first made.
It is less about the time and more about the consistency of the build itself. Give me some of the stuff that John Smith, Spanky, Fluff etc play and I would be lucky to complete 170 1/10 of the time.
I’m not talking about timings. I’m talking about consistency.
Just because a build can do sub 6 consistently in the hands of a good player doesn’t mean that the average player will be able to achieve a consistent 7 min clear with it.
EDIT: That’s pretty much the reason why I make sure I’m able to beat naked crucible on builds I’m posting before sharing it with the public. My logic is that if I can do it without buffs/banners, then the average player should be able to achieve consistent clears WITH buffs/banners.
2nd EDIT: @norzan, @ceno - Just to give you an idea of how pilot-skill impacts clear time…on average, @John_smith does cr runs 1 full minute faster than me.
I can’t imagine what the clear time difference would be between him and the average player.
But according to what he said earlier, everyone just needs to practice or improve their play to get to that level, which is of course, wrong. Minimizing times requires pinpoint accuracy and reflexes (in addition to knowledge which could be gained through experience) which only a few players have the innate talent to pull off.
Personally, I would be ok with it if the only difference is in Crucible clear times.
For eg:
Sigatrev does <5 min Crucible Clear when in my hands it takes 8 mins? Sure, that is alright.
But say Zantai nerfs the Set or skills based on his Crucible time so that in his hands it takes 6-7 mins.
Sure, that is fine too.
But if it means that I can’t even Complete Crucible 170 because of the change, then that is not good.
Another point I want to make is that the same build before nerf could be Sub-Par in SR. But if the nerf is made with no or little consideration to anything outside of Crucible, then it echoes into SR and ofcourse also against Celestials (even though the majority don’t care about those).
Now one could say that for SR/Celestials, you just need to build it differently from Crucible and all will be fine. I agree on the need to build it differently. But you are still using the same skills and items which have been now nerfed, which means all other builds also fare worse.
And all that just because a build is a few seconds faster than intended in Crucible, when piloted by someone skilled…
I am with Spanky on simply introducing a mechanic on artificially creating a time limit under which no build can clear the Crucible if that is the issue here.
Yes and no. I think anyone can achieve sub 7 timings (with the right spec) with sufficient experience.
This is where @norzan, and @ceno would be correct. Assuming player skill is constant across the board, then the stats of the spec really do matter.
But where skill difference really start to show is in the sub-6 clears.
I’ve said this many times before, but I’m a shit buffed/bannered pilot, because I play mostly naked crucible.
This means I compensate by making my builds super glassy, and super DPS-y in order to get competitive clear times.
Which is also why you’ll hear mad “L2P” lee whine about how my builds are too inconsistent for him, and also why I recommend players to use my the “naked crucible version” of my build over the buffed/bannered one.
@maya: The one good thing about the way Cr is currently set up, though, is that it does allow players to identify OP builds.
??? didn’t Zantai post something about SR60 max-out rewards in the thread? why it’s no longer there?
Nevertheless it might not be correct.
One of our modders posted this on 2019-04-12
https://tieba.baidu.com/p/6098708702?share=9105&fr=share&see_lz=0&sfc=qqfriend&client_type=2&client_version=10.3.8.12&st=1571194841&unique=021F967CE6C3C2E099FE7944ADF8DD00&red_tag=0831736472
fyi.
– if the player used a checkpoint, then they are given the checkpoint loot on the same Tier as they started if they “cash out”.
checkpointTable[75] = { nil, dbrChestP, dbrChestP, nil, nil, dbrChestP, nil }
checkpointTable[80] = { nil, dbrChestQ, dbrChestP, nil, nil, dbrChestQ, nil }
checkpointTable[85] = { nil, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, nil, nil, dbrChestQ, nil }
checkpointTable[90] = { nil, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, nil, nil, dbrChestQ, nil }
checkpointTable[95] = { nil, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, nil, nil, dbrChestQ, nil }
checkpointTable[100] = { nil, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, nil, nil, dbrChestQ, nil }
– if the player reached the next treasure tier and opted to “cash out”, they receive the earned rewards.
rewardTable[76] = { dbrChestJ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestM }
rewardTable[77] = { dbrChestJ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestN }
rewardTable[78] = { dbrChestJ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestO }
rewardTable[79] = { dbrChestJ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestP }
rewardTable[80] = { dbrChestK, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestP }
rewardTable[81] = { dbrChestL, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestP }
rewardTable[82] = { dbrChestM, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestP }
rewardTable[83] = { dbrChestN, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestP }
rewardTable[84] = { dbrChestO, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestP }
rewardTable[85] = { dbrChestP, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestP }
rewardTable[86] = { dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestP }
rewardTable[87] = { dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ }
– Dispense 8th/9th bonus chests, if player beat the clock
checkpointBonusTable[75] = { dbrChestO, nil }
checkpointBonusTable[80] = { dbrChestN, nil }
checkpointBonusTable[85] = { dbrChestP, nil }
checkpointBonusTable[90] = { dbrChestP, nil }
checkpointBonusTable[95] = { dbrChestP, nil }
checkpointBonusTable[100] = { dbrChestP, nil }
bonusTable[76] = { dbrChestO, dbrChestO }
bonusTable[77] = { dbrChestO, dbrChestO }
bonusTable[78] = { dbrChestO, dbrChestP }
bonusTable[79] = { dbrChestO, dbrChestP }
bonusTable[80] = { dbrChestO, dbrChestP }
bonusTable[81] = { dbrChestO, dbrChestQ }
bonusTable[82] = { dbrChestO, dbrChestQ }
bonusTable[83] = { dbrChestO, dbrChestQ }
bonusTable[84] = { dbrChestP, dbrChestQ }
bonusTable[85] = { dbrChestP, dbrChestQ }
bonusTable[86] = { dbrChestP, dbrChestQ }
bonusTable[87] = { dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ }
– Dispense second Special Chest, only applies to specific dungeon tiers. Contain unique rewards. Not dispensed if checkpoint is used and reward claimed at the same tier.
if rewardTier >= 60 then
special02Tier = 6
elseif rewardTier >= 45 then
special02Tier = 5
elseif rewardTier >= 30 then
special02Tier = 4
elseif rewardTier >= 20 then
special02Tier = 3
elseif rewardTier >= 10 then
special02Tier = 2
else
special02Tier = 1
end
Perhaps, but OP in the sense of Crucible does not necessarily mean OP in SR. That is my issue.
The 2 metas are different.
Skeleton Pet builds are a good example of this. If you can keep them alive so that they don’t lose their blessings, you can get pretty good clear times in Crucible.
Take the same build into SR and it will struggle. Do note that there are some exceptions to this like my Pet Purifier which fares better in SR than in Cruci, but that is only because of Aggro abuse being possible.
Warlord during FG release, now that was OP.
Rewards never maxed out at SR60 if you are talking about the loot from the chests. It scales upto like SR87 or so afaik. Definitely scales past SR85, that much I can say.
Of course. The way I see it - SR is the yardstick but which endgame tanks should be measured, and crucible the yardstick by which endgame DPS specs should be measured.
2 completely different things. Problems arise when a DPS spec is just way too resilient (e.g. old school warborn warlord), or when a tank does way too much damage (e.g. old school octavius)
Yes that’s valid and supported by the codes.
I think Zantai posted something about no further unique rewards after SR 60. That doesn’t mean no change in the rewards at all – you can get bigger rewards that aren’t unique – but you don’t get anything past SR 60 that you couldn’t get from just repeating 55-56 or whatever more frequently.
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I agree. Naked Crucible (with extra spawns obiously :3) is also decent for tanks if you want better consistency in terms of challenge since SR’s difficulty can be quite random.
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