Endgame balancing problem

[sir_spanksalot]

How much time do your “skills” shave off? 20 seconds? 30? 60? Now how much time does a less-strong build take in Crucible? 2 minutes? 3? 4?

I’m not talking about timings. I’m talking about consistency.

Just because a build can do sub 6 consistently in the hands of a good player doesn’t mean that the average player will be able to achieve a consistent 7 min clear with it.

EDIT: That’s pretty much the reason why I make sure I’m able to beat naked crucible on builds I’m posting before sharing it with the public. My logic is that if I can do it without buffs/banners, then the average player should be able to achieve consistent clears WITH buffs/banners.

2nd EDIT: @norzan, @ceno - Just to give you an idea of how pilot-skill impacts clear time…on average, @John_smith does cr runs 1 full minute faster than me.

I can’t imagine what the clear time difference would be between him and the average player.

[Anonymous918]

2nd EDIT: @norzan, @ceno - Just to give you an idea of how pilot-skill impacts clear time…on average, @John_smith does cr runs 1 full minute faster than me.

I can’t imagine what the clear time difference would be between him and the average player.

But according to what he said earlier, everyone just needs to practice or improve their play to get to that level, which is of course, wrong. Minimizing times requires pinpoint accuracy and reflexes (in addition to knowledge which could be gained through experience) which only a few players have the innate talent to pull off.

[Maya]

2nd EDIT: @norzan, @ceno - Just to give you an idea of how pilot-skill impacts clear time…on average, @John_smith does cr runs 1 full minute faster than me.

I can’t imagine what the clear time difference would be between him and the average player.

But according to what he said earlier, everyone just needs to practice or improve their play to get to that level, which is of course, wrong. Minimizing times requires pinpoint accuracy and reflexes (in addition to knowledge which could be gained through experience) which only a few players have the innate talent to pull off.

Personally, I would be ok with it if the only difference is in Crucible clear times.

For eg:

Sigatrev does <5 min Crucible Clear when in my hands it takes 8 mins? Sure, that is alright.

But say Zantai nerfs the Set or skills based on his Crucible time so that in his hands it takes 6-7 mins.
Sure, that is fine too.

But if it means that I can’t even Complete Crucible 170 because of the change, then that is not good.

Another point I want to make is that the same build before nerf could be Sub-Par in SR. But if the nerf is made with no or little consideration to anything outside of Crucible, then it echoes into SR and ofcourse also against Celestials (even though the majority don’t care about those).

Now one could say that for SR/Celestials, you just need to build it differently from Crucible and all will be fine. I agree on the need to build it differently. But you are still using the same skills and items which have been now nerfed, which means all other builds also fare worse.

And all that just because a build is a few seconds faster than intended in Crucible, when piloted by someone skilled…

I am with Spanky on simply introducing a mechanic on artificially creating a time limit under which no build can clear the Crucible if that is the issue here.

[sir_spanksalot]

everyone just needs to practice or improve their play to get to that level, which is of course, wrong. Minimizing times requires pinpoint accuracy and reflexes (in addition to knowledge which could be gained through experience) which only a few players have the innate talent to pull off.

Yes and no. I think anyone can achieve sub 7 timings (with the right spec) with sufficient experience.

This is where @norzan, and @ceno would be correct. Assuming player skill is constant across the board, then the stats of the spec really do matter.

But where skill difference really start to show is in the sub-6 clears.

I’ve said this many times before, but I’m a shit buffed/bannered pilot, because I play mostly naked crucible.

This means I compensate by making my builds super glassy, and super DPS-y in order to get competitive clear times.

Which is also why you’ll hear mad “L2P” lee whine about how my builds are too inconsistent for him, and also why I recommend players to use my the “naked crucible version” of my build over the buffed/bannered one.

@maya: The one good thing about the way Cr is currently set up, though, is that it does allow players to identify OP builds.

[ABCbarbecue]

??? didn’t Zantai post something about SR60 max-out rewards in the thread? why it’s no longer there?

Nevertheless it might not be correct.
One of our modders posted this on 2019-04-12
https://tieba.baidu.com/p/6098708702?share=9105&fr=share&see_lz=0&sfc=qqfriend&client_type=2&client_version=10.3.8.12&st=1571194841&unique=021F967CE6C3C2E099FE7944ADF8DD00&red_tag=0831736472

fyi.
– if the player used a checkpoint, then they are given the checkpoint loot on the same Tier as they started if they “cash out”.
checkpointTable[75] = { nil, dbrChestP, dbrChestP, nil, nil, dbrChestP, nil }
checkpointTable[80] = { nil, dbrChestQ, dbrChestP, nil, nil, dbrChestQ, nil }
checkpointTable[85] = { nil, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, nil, nil, dbrChestQ, nil }
checkpointTable[90] = { nil, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, nil, nil, dbrChestQ, nil }
checkpointTable[95] = { nil, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, nil, nil, dbrChestQ, nil }
checkpointTable[100] = { nil, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, nil, nil, dbrChestQ, nil }
– if the player reached the next treasure tier and opted to “cash out”, they receive the earned rewards.
rewardTable[76] = { dbrChestJ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestM }
rewardTable[77] = { dbrChestJ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestN }
rewardTable[78] = { dbrChestJ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestO }
rewardTable[79] = { dbrChestJ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestP }
rewardTable[80] = { dbrChestK, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestP }

rewardTable[81] = { dbrChestL, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestP }
rewardTable[82] = { dbrChestM, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestP }
rewardTable[83] = { dbrChestN, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestP }
rewardTable[84] = { dbrChestO, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestP }
rewardTable[85] = { dbrChestP, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestP }

rewardTable[86] = { dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestP }
rewardTable[87] = { dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ }

– Dispense 8th/9th bonus chests, if player beat the clock
checkpointBonusTable[75] = { dbrChestO, nil }
checkpointBonusTable[80] = { dbrChestN, nil }
checkpointBonusTable[85] = { dbrChestP, nil }
checkpointBonusTable[90] = { dbrChestP, nil }
checkpointBonusTable[95] = { dbrChestP, nil }
checkpointBonusTable[100] = { dbrChestP, nil }

bonusTable[76] = { dbrChestO, dbrChestO }
bonusTable[77] = { dbrChestO, dbrChestO }
bonusTable[78] = { dbrChestO, dbrChestP }
bonusTable[79] = { dbrChestO, dbrChestP }
bonusTable[80] = { dbrChestO, dbrChestP }

bonusTable[81] = { dbrChestO, dbrChestQ }
bonusTable[82] = { dbrChestO, dbrChestQ }
bonusTable[83] = { dbrChestO, dbrChestQ }
bonusTable[84] = { dbrChestP, dbrChestQ }
bonusTable[85] = { dbrChestP, dbrChestQ }

bonusTable[86] = { dbrChestP, dbrChestQ }
bonusTable[87] = { dbrChestQ, dbrChestQ }

– Dispense second Special Chest, only applies to specific dungeon tiers. Contain unique rewards. Not dispensed if checkpoint is used and reward claimed at the same tier.
if rewardTier >= 60 then
special02Tier = 6
elseif rewardTier >= 45 then
special02Tier = 5
elseif rewardTier >= 30 then
special02Tier = 4
elseif rewardTier >= 20 then
special02Tier = 3
elseif rewardTier >= 10 then
special02Tier = 2
else
special02Tier = 1
end

[Maya]

@maya: The one good thing about the way Cr is currently set up, though, is that it does allow players to identify OP builds.

Perhaps, but OP in the sense of Crucible does not necessarily mean OP in SR. That is my issue.
The 2 metas are different.

Skeleton Pet builds are a good example of this. If you can keep them alive so that they don’t lose their blessings, you can get pretty good clear times in Crucible.

Take the same build into SR and it will struggle. Do note that there are some exceptions to this like my Pet Purifier which fares better in SR than in Cruci, but that is only because of Aggro abuse being possible.

Warlord during FG release, now that was OP.

[Maya]

??? didn’t Zantai post something about SR60 max-out rewards in the thread? why it’s no longer

Rewards never maxed out at SR60 if you are talking about the loot from the chests. It scales upto like SR87 or so afaik. Definitely scales past SR85, that much I can say.

[sir_spanksalot]

Of course. The way I see it - SR is the yardstick but which endgame tanks should be measured, and crucible the yardstick by which endgame DPS specs should be measured.

2 completely different things. Problems arise when a DPS spec is just way too resilient (e.g. old school warborn warlord), or when a tank does way too much damage (e.g. old school octavius)

[ABCbarbecue]

Yes that’s valid and supported by the codes.

[grasida]

I think Zantai posted something about no further unique rewards after SR 60. That doesn’t mean no change in the rewards at all – you can get bigger rewards that aren’t unique – but you don’t get anything past SR 60 that you couldn’t get from just repeating 55-56 or whatever more frequently.

[Maya]

Of course. The way I see it - SR is the yardstick but which endgame tanks should be measured, and crucible the yardstick by which endgame DPS specs should be measured.

2 completely different things. Problems arise when a DPS spec is just way too resilient (e.g. old school warborn warlord), or when a tank does way too much damage (e.g. old school octavius)

I agree. Naked Crucible (with extra spawns obiously :3) is also decent for tanks if you want better consistency in terms of challenge since SR’s difficulty can be quite random.

[ABCbarbecue]

Yes I saw something about it, but I cannot find the post. Therefore I don’t know exactly what was said.

[Maya]

Also, on the topic of pets, a relevant but short thread incase there are nerfs on the horizon: Pets and Crucible

Also note that I am not aware of any other Pet build even touching the 6 min mark in the Current Patch and even the one in the above thread is from a few patches ago, before Crucible got a difficulty upgrade. So I don’t know of its current times.

As for SR, all my builds are capable of SR 75+, but that is on SC and you can still get boss+mutator combos that are impossible to beat. Also, aggro abuse…

[powbam]

@ABCbarbecue

Click the sidebar as shown in this screen to go to the first post -

Then find and click on Zantai’s icon. His “card” will popup and then you click the button as shown in this pic -

To view all posts made by Zantai in this thread.

[BOG]

I would like to know the trick to doing this. I always try to pull them one by one, but I cannot do this reliably. With some combos I find it is impossible.

In SR 75-76, strong builds can manage most bosses 2 at the time. Though in 95% cases it’s very possible and kinda easy to pull them 1 by 1. And in rest 5%, 4% would be 2 bosses you can manage.
The trick? On “lava” arena, just move a bit forward, and you’ll pull 1 boss. Then move right and pull another.
On “shrine” arena move left (right) to the wall and (maybe) a bit forward. and you’ll pull 1 boss.

[ABCbarbecue]

Thanks . I know how to trace his replies but surprisingly it’s not there

Zantai

but I still found it.

[AlkamosHater]

I think Zantai means that “unique rewards” is just SR set which last piece is on 60 shard. Random purples/MIs drop more often in higher shards for sure.

[medea_fleecestealer]

Huh? It’s in the 2nd post doing what powbam said to find it. Using the other method of searching from his icon as shown will call up all the messages he’s posted which would take longer to find the one you want.

Didn’t realise that trick btw @powbam. Need you to finish off that Discourse tutorial you were writing. Post haste man, post haste!

[sir_spanksalot]

But in Crucible mobs/bosses charge at you all at once, and in SR you can pull them 1 by 1 or with smaller packs. This makes a HUGE difference, so no, Crucible 170 is far harder than SR 40-50.

I would like to know the trick to doing this. I always try to pull them one by one, but I cannot do this reliably. With some combos I find it is impossible.

[1.1.4.2] Belgothian Blademaster DW tank 100SR/Celestials

So basically, monsters vision range (our main weapon in agro abuse tactic) depends not only about what they see but also about what you see. If you have your camera turned on south they have like ~50% worse vision sight (game is made for north settings). You have much more options to manipulate them, you don’t need even to move, just rotate upper right/upper left corner of your screen to the boss which you want to fight first. If you accidentely make agro on two bosses, rotate your camera to south on them fast, you can stop them mid-walk. It works during fight too but you have to make distance very fast, it works most likely on lava map. Next advantage you have - fighting with camera on south you have much more space for kiting and being undetected by other bosses.

Corner glitch:
I don’t have picture for that yet but on conclave map go northest side and hug corner on the left, I guess you know where it is. Boss which you want to make glitched must be right under your foot.

1. Grava’thul won’t use his fumble pools and nulify, he will rarely even autoattack.
2. Alexander won’t cast meteors and spawn crystals.
3. Zantarin and Valdaran will totally freeze and ignore you if they are not bosses you are fighting with.
4. Works for more monster types too probably but didn’t use it much, basically only when I failed agro abuse in some cases and I hope for at least one kill before dying.

It’s some magic place because I couldn’t find anything like that anywhere else, tryied a lot. It’s also bad place for inquisitor mastery because sometimes (well, often) you can’t place seals here for some reason.

///10char///

[AlkamosHater]

This, no point to play boss rooms with basic camera settings anymore.

I would add to it that’s it’s better to rotate camer with bottom corners sometimes, depends of boss/room/positions etc. Sometimes bosses are stacked on each other so to not pull them all, try to walk slowly with south camera, pull one boss, blink with mobility skill, he will stop. Lure him a little but do not fight, just reposition him. You can then go for other harder/easier boss from another direction with smartly operating camera.