Eh, I’m basically tired from both sides shitflinging crap at each other at this point. Every goddamn thread there is a literal war going on.
It’s also one of the reasons I basically quit the game at this point (aside from making CP that is).
Just to make sure I love you both guys, so be at least slightly more polite…
It’s not the case here. Like as far as I understand (correct me if I am wrong), ADTCH % doesn’t scale above 100% weapon damage. So if it’s 10% when you have 100% weapon damage + all non-dot flat, it’s going to be 10% when you have have 120% weapon damage + more flat (total adtch will be higher of course). It does scale down tho, so when % weapon damage goes lower than 100% ADCTH % goes down proportionally. So if it’s 80% weapon damage it’s going to be 8%, right? (again, correct me if I am wrong).
So my assumption that with increased -%total damage modifier %ADTCH also decreased. Because loss of adtch feels like it’s much higher than loss of adtch that should’ve been with mere 10% weapon damage loss (since total %weapon damage is above 100% still).
Sure, but doing more damage still impacts how much you receive, it’s not called “attack damage converted to health” for nothing. It stands to make sense that an attack that does 500% weapon damage will leech more than an attack that does 100% weapon damage on the same character even though the ADCtH modifier for both is the same - that is what I am getting at. This can be observed readily on Cadence builds.
I’d like to know the whole mechanic behind adcth and i never really read a comprehensive review on it. Some say it doesn’t scale past 100% WD but it’s not the case because as you pointed out Cadence strike has huge leech spike compared to regular strikes.
One more thing i’ve noticed while playing casters and watching others play it. Some caster builds have pathetic WD that should not at any circumstances give any impactful leech. Yet Spear provides very high leech hits. On the other hand Fire Strike builds have enormous dps but can only survive with 20%+ leech rate because apparently Brimstone and Static Strike aren’t counted for leech. Based on that i can only guess that different skills have different parts of flat that provide leech.
What might’ve happened to PS spam: all the flat on the skill (the main flat source since WD flat is so low) provides leech, then the transmuter -total dmg was increased and effectively lowered that flat by (0.82-0.67)/0.82 = 18,3% meaning now you have 18,3% leech from additional flat on the skill.
Still it doesn’t explain why my char with 20% leech and 200k tooltip dps cannot survive.
And again I am not disagreeing with you here
Problem is that that again, it feels like (and maybe I am wrong) that -%Total Damage Modified actually affects ADTCH percentage and not just total adtch. Which hurts sustain of PS builds a lot.
What you just said is true. Going above 100% weapon damage does not increase the ADCtH modifier but doing more damage means this ADCtH modiufier has more damage to multiply.
Consider the following scenario:
You would first life steal ((10000 x 1.5) x 0.1 x 0.15) = 225 health, then ((10000 x 3) x 0.1 x 0.15) = 450 health.
Even though the resistance or ADCtH modifiers have not changed, your damage output has.
Going back to my original point - hardcapped TS Primal Strike lost about 18% weapon damage per attack a few updates back across the board, on high attack speeds, this is around 50-75% weapon damage per second.
Interesting, didn’t know it works in that order. So the leech cap is applied AFTER all the calculations, including enemy leech resistance? In other words, high (boss) enemy leech resistance can be somewhat compensated with high WD percentage hits?
I was not aware there was an order when everything is just a damage multiplier 
, A * B * C is no different than C * B * A. Maybe, I’m wrong, but how I described it is how I understand life steal works anyway.
Should do yes, high flat damage values should also have a similar appliance as you know from DW Chaos melee builds 
.
This is also why Life Leech RR is so potent. Nemeses in Campaign have 90% Life Leech resistance, so even something like Rattosh or Haunt’s 8% LL RR is a ~80% multiplier to total life steal (e.g. 100 to 180 health leeched). Both is a ~160% total boost (e.g. 100 to 260 health leeched).
It’s not all multipliers. Imagine if leech was capped at 100% WD before enemy leech resistance application. All those 500% WD Cadence strike would’ve been capped at 100% WD for leech calculation. And had the same 0.15 (after boss leech resistance) value as regular strikes instead of 0.75.
Stormrend is missing stats. It’s for PS and got no attack speed. For elementalist and nothing for defense, no healing procs, no da.
Same design tendency with a lot of stuff lately. Like the Scion 2-handers. Especially the aether one - a spellbinder weapon with no cdr.
Because whoever wanna play a 320% wpn dmg nuke with 2.5m radius. It’s a skill made for spam.
Torrent? Hand of Ultos? Storm Totem and/or Wind Devil? Storm Witch rings have Chain Lightning procs etc… You have other places you can get AoE for dealing with crowds you know.
Do you also think Raka’Jax is made for spam Primal Strike?
Do you need cooldown Primal Strike for those things? (except for Torrent obviously) When you can play a caster that doesn’t need to go in melee range and also doesn’t have to invest like 30 skill points into, let’s be honest, pretty mediocre nuke.
Like compare it Doom Bolt on Clairvoyant for example: https://www.grimtools.com/calc/eZPExJGN (a spec that I played and tested quite a bit). For 9 points skill investment you get much better bang for your buck. That’s a proper Nuke and it hits like one.
Noone knows what Raka’Jax is made for. But it’s provocative. It gets people going.
It’s more a case of cd Primal Strike needing those things than the other way around isn’t it?
If you’re at a point where you decide to drop playing something because something else is better, why even consider playing the first build in the first place? Because some people somewhere will enjoy cooldown-based melee Primal Strike even if other builds are better than it and Stormrend enables that.
Yet I have heard many builders on the forums here have made good builds out of it, so evidently it is doing something right.
You basically gimp Torrent by 90% by not taking the transmuter. One of the reasons why cd PS is what it is.
Then what’s the point of balancing when some builds vastly outperform others?
Also, Stormrend enables dw PS so it’s natural that players would wanna use it to increase the speed of PS. Because that’s what people usually use dw in melee for - to increase the speed of attacks. So gimping Stormrend out of attack speed and making it only work (air quotes on “work”) for cd PS… just a bit weird.
Raka’Jax is also outperformed by ranged PS spam with Ugdenbog Sparkthrower.
Anyway, my point is not that people should only play top tier builds or whatever. I’m just saying - if anyone is looking to make cd PS better then either 1) put a radius increase mod on Stormrend (but then people will still transmute it and still be better off for it) or 2) change PS itself so that it has bigger radius and put radius penalty to the transmuter.
Nope, unfortunately CD PS is so weak that it’s hard to justify a 30 points investment when you can just have a pure caster and be better off.
Again, not saying there is no place in the game for cd PS. Just saying that in its current state and especially with Stormrender it’s pretty meh and could be improved.
I’ve only seen one I think and it’s not that good. It is not doing anything right. For a caster two-hander it lacks CDR, for auto-attacker it lacks attack speed. That coolbob story about “but it’s for Electrocute builds” doesn’t hold up where you can have better Electrocute (and much better damage/tankiness/qol) with caster’s off-hand/caster’s scepter. This weapon is definitely one of the most useless and disappointing Lightning legendaries in the game.
Every well-created and thought out build should be viable in some aspect. It is natural that some builds will outperform others, you can’t get past that eventuality. What should be done though is ensure that no build outperforms the general majority or “pack” of builds by too big of a margin - that is what balancing is for.
Usually? Sure. But the fact that Stormrend doesn’t feature any attack speed, features cooldown reduction both globally and to the 2 skills it supports should be a pretty big tip-off that it is not intended for spamming it.
See the above, above comment.
I’m saying what I have said so far because using cooldown Primal Strike and not using Thunderous Strike is evidently what the developer intent for the weapon is clearly for according to the weapon’s stats. Advocating that it gets attack speed and work with Thunderous Strike goes against that.
Rather than trying to fit a square peg into a circular hole so-to-speak, why not discuss ways to buff the weapon for cooldown-based Primal Strike if it is lacking?
So if it’s meant for CD PS why bother with dual-wielding? I don’t mind making it CD PS weapon, but it would still need improvements. Like for example turning it into a dagger/scepter so it have higher %damage.
Also those links are just players saying about how they used Raka’Jax, those are not guides with videos that prove that it is really viable. Besides, from what I’ve heard from @Nery that spec with Raka’Jax is very underwhelming.
To capitalise on the CDR and Electrocute skill modifiers more than 1 Stormrender?
They are still from builders like you that have posted successful builds in the past. I think I can trust their word when they say that Raka’Jax is fine. Moreover, I think this would start to devolve into another debate on what you consider a “good build” and what others do, as evidenced by:
So, I think we can just stop the discussion here.
Off-hand will offer ± same CD to PS and very valuable global CDR that will outweigh second Electrocute mod.
So you can trust their word and not trust mine? 
Well, you can wait to hear from @Nery himself about that.
What if Stormrend got flat Electrocute instead of it’s current flat Lightning damage? Don’t forget as well that it hits with both hands so using an off hand loses you 320% weapon damage every 1.8 seconds or so.
I trust someone who has actually played a build on it and can actually report on how it fares . If you want to convince me that Raka’Jax is really bad and what Nery/Weyu said is false, actually try a build using it and tell me how it fares at farming Legendaries in Crucible, Shattered Realm or against Nemeses/Roguelike Bosses/Lokarr in campaign.