[Feedback] Unstoppable mutator destroys Olexra and Blade Trap

Grim Dawn Ideas and Feedback
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A while ago there was a discussion about swift/unstoppable (shackles) and crowd control skills, which apparently lead to this:

For the record i remember Z saying that CC mut’s will be adjusted because they have too dramatic affect on certain archetypes performance, but i cant find it anywhere so it might be that them voices finally got me

And here i am to report that it didnt do jackshit.

Upon playing mageslayer there are two scenarious:

  1. No shackles or +Swift mut - All nemesis except Moosi are freezable, most heroes are freezable. The ones that are immune to freeze - yetis, trees, chton cultists, some crabs heroes, some frozen and unstoppable heroes. Swift mut doesnt do anything besides granting mobs +ms which is very nice on every build. Mobs that are immune to freeze under normal circumstances remain to be so with swift mut.
  2. +Shackles mut. - None of the nemesis can be frozen. Most heroes and bosses (albeit the council) immune to it as well. Basically your Olexra doesnt do anything.

There are 5 mutators slots in crucible and there are 27 muts in the pool. That means that there are 5/27 * 2 = 0.37 probability of getting unstoppable in whole 150-170 run (unless i screwed up the math). And as you can see from the above, there’s no point in trying to run with shackles because olexra is just not working.
it can me compared to having 33% chance of loosing your weapon(s) while playing a melee build. It doesnt bring anything to the table other than a need to restart the run, whether that being CR or SR.

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it’s 1 - (22/27)^2 = 33.6%

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as a builder that played OFF Spellbreaker, I can only agree with Grey.

there are just 2 builds in the whole game that rely on CC-based skills - Mageslayer and Rimetongue, and Shackles mutator turns them into (almost) pumpkins.
It’s not the question of like extra timer in Crucible, it’s a question that your main skill becomes useless because of a single mutator.

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Yeah, some mutators are pretty brutal to some builds. Like, there’s this “Weakened” mutator that reduces your crit damage by 30% (!), which is pretty devastating for builds that don’t have much of it to begin with! I have a build that has 19% crit damage and 3.4k OA, and have a build that has 113% crit damage and 3k OA. Guess which one suffers the most?

Another one is more on a thematic side I would say: “Armored”. It gives 15% phys and pierce res to monsters. Now, phys res I can understand, but isn’t pierce damage’s purpouse is to BYPASS ARMOR? Why if they’re “armored” they resist armor-piercing attacks? XD

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Have you tested perhaps if if reduces your Crit damage by 30% or maybe just 19%?
And can you deal less than 100% damage because of it on Crit or maybe 100% is the lowest it can go?

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I don’t think crit damage can go to negative values, so it will be just 0%

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I’m pretty sure tooltip says -%X when you have such mutators with such builds.

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Your minimum crit damage is always 1,10x, even if the tooltip shows it to be in the negatives.

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Thanks for the info, good to know. Never really cared to check numbers if I’m dealing less damage when critting in such occasions but I guess this concludes that -crit mutator don’t do much harm to low crit damage builds.

Anyway no need to turn this thread into another mess; main topic is CC mutators and how they are affecting Mageslayer, Rimetongue builds. I never played neither of them so I have nothing to add in this area.

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The mathematics of the situation means that only a +9% increase in freeze resistance results in over 50% reduction in freeze duration against most nemeses, assuming 22/12 OFF + Mageslayer. Given this, I would advocate for Unstoppable to remain but for its magnitude to be at most 10%.

…But technically they wouldn’t be “Unstoppable”…

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Pretty much what Norzan said. Haven’t touched that char in a while but as far as I remember I was getting x1.10 at most. Would be pretty terrible implementation if it rendered crits completely useless. Still sucks for builds with below average (~50%) crit damage =\

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I think Shattered with its -10% Total damage may be still far worse, even for those high OA characters.

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I brought up this problem in that feedback megathread and my suggestion was to simply remove both mutations entirely. Then somebody said that’s not necessary and that a decrease in their numbers should be good enough.

Well, the reason why I want these removed is because I don’t want to deal with this kind of RNG - “fishing” for neutral mutations. It’s just Diablo 3-esque. Like usually you don’t really have to if you just want to play but these 2 mutations are too strong for OFF and Blade Trap builds, so you must at least fish for a game without the Unstoppable modifier.

Also I just want to respond to what someone said in that other (now locked) thread: There’s apparently a mod that removes mutations, well that’s wonderful, but I still want to express my displeasure at this mechanic so that it hopefully doesn’t get revived for GD2, far into the future.

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Is this about ‘competitive’ playstyle again?

Are you guys centering your builds REALLY more or less on ONE offensive skill, like OFF and Blade Trap?

I am interested in this, cause I plan to do a special Blade Trap build myself.

To the matter at hand: I think this goes a lot deeper.

The mutators are anoying in itself, but that I can live with.

The issue to me is in reg. to CC, that a whole ‘gamemode’ (the CCs) is made obsolete near EGC (and thus partly also in Crucible), just because of one decision: the developers not wanting players to have any option of ‘boss control’.

Besides a few other such decisions (e.g. non-myth-ittems having skills, which their myth counterparts no longer have, because the game ‘shouldn’t play itself’ … well, which one is the bad design here? For me as a light show lover this almost killed the game when I read that) this just seems … the wrong way to go.

In crucible you have crowds of bosses near the end. Duh!?
So, without CC, you have mostly only the option to run around like crazy and actively hit them with whatever you got. Feels like Chicken run or Angry Birds at that point.

What I am trying to say is, that there shouldn’t be ANY total immunity of ANY opponent to ANY player skill. Even if the Superboss is shut off only for a third of a second it can still help. But just making Enemies 100% immune to a whole part of the game is a bad design decision to me.

And frankly, new casual players, which like to build around CC are more or less trolled near endgame then, when suddenly their whole build gets obsolete with that. After several hours invested.

The whole concept, not only the mutators, should be reexamined imho.

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Shouldn’t this be different because each mutator roll is not an independent event (you can’t get the same mutator twice)? Thus not 1-(22/27) but 1-(1-(1/27+1/26+1/25+1/24+1/23)) ?

BTW, what’s the real chance of not getting Shattered, res mutator and attack speed mutator for, say, cold melee speedrun?

I tested it in one patch and build would not crit at all with negative crit dmg. Only white damage. Might have been a glitch, though.

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Sorry for off-topic, but you could get double mutators [1.1.9.0] Mutator duplicating in Dangerous Domains
(do not know if it is possible still or fixed).

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 Just leveling OFF build up now, currecntly lvl 62 on elite, so a lot far from late game content but the thing that's annoying me most is: WHY the hell enemies which are immune to CC do not take normal skill damage and , than, the devotion skill binded to OFF do not proc ? 
My guess is that OFF counts as debuff, not as attack now and so my suggestion is to remake this skill.

It’s ok( for me) that some tough enemies could not be frozen, but it’s no way ok that skill you invest points and collect gear does not do any damage that case.

1 Like
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thats an unknown issue both in SR and CR.

yep, pretty much this.
especially contempt that “fix it yourself” argument as utterly reductive and pointless.

luckily, it seems like tqFan will correct our calculations.

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full mutator randomizer function 
-- Select Mutator(s) for the set of rounds
local function SurvivalEvent_MutatorRandomizer(mutatorCount)

	local totalMutators = table.getn(mutatorList)
	local selectedList = {}
	
	print "selecting mutators"
	-- randomly select mutators until a unique list of length mutatorCount is created
	if mutatorCount <= totalMutators then
		math.randomseed(Time.Now())
		
		while table.getn(selectedList) != mutatorCount do
			local rand = random(1,totalMutators)
			local found = false
			
			if rand < totalMutators then
				for id = 1, table.getn(selectedList) do
					if mutatorList[rand] == selectedList[id] then
						found = true
					
					end
				
				end
				
				if not found then
					table.insert(selectedList, mutatorList[rand])
				
				end
			
			end
		
		end
		
		-- Apply selected Mutators
		local totalMutatorsSelected = table.getn(selectedList)
		
		if totalMutatorsSelected > 1 then
			LuaGlobalEvent("notifyPluralMutators")
		else
			LuaGlobalEvent("notifyMutators")
		end
		
		
		for id = 1, totalMutatorsSelected do
			Game.AddMutator(selectedList[id])
		
		end		
	
	end

end

I’ll look into the Mutator script to check how it really works, as I don’t remember now myself.
You can see in the code that it:

  • draws a random mutator

    • local rand = random(1,totalMutators)

  • till it has appropriate number of them for the wave

    • while table.getn(selectedList) != mutatorCount do

  • also checks if mutators don’t repeat 
    •  		if not found then
 			table.insert(selectedList, mutatorList[rand])

You can show why 1/27+1/26+1/25+1/24+1/23 cannot be a correct answer:

  • let’s say we have 27 mutators in a wave -> what’s the probability of getting Unstoppable in a single wave?

  • with @banana_peel’s formula (was 5/27 in previous case ) it’s 27 / 27 = 100% <- ok

  • with your formula it’s:

    • 1/27 + 1/26 + … + 1/2 + 1/1 ~ 3.89 > 1 = 100%

      • the answer doesn’t make sense because you get a number bigger than 1 which means there’s must be something wrong here.

A similar mistake that was made in this post [Feedback] Concerns about drop chance of some MI legendaries

It’s hard for me to explain it simply but when you look at these mutator sequences:
A, B, C, D, E
you say it’s 1/26 for B. And it’s true that when A was already chosen, B has 26 options.

But these events of selecting A and B are not independent as you said and
B is 1/26 to be Unstoppable only if A was not Unstoppable to begin with.

You lost all these events / Mutator sequences where A was Unstoppable.
Then B has 0% chance to be Unstoppable and this has to be included:

Probability of A being Unstoppable = 1/27

Probability of B being Unstoppable =
= 1/26 * (prob A was not Unstoppable) + 0% * (prob A is Unstoppable) =
= 1/26 * 26/27 + 0% * 1/27 =
= 1/27
(using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conditional_probability)

Probability of C being Unstoppable = 1/25 * (probability A,B were not Unstoppable) 25 / 27 = 1/27

Or in another way straightforward way without conditional probability:

  • we have 27*26*25*24*23 sequences (A,B,C,D,E)

    • how many of them have B=Unstoppable?

  • Those that start with A=Not Unstoppable (26 options), then Unstoppable (1 option) then whatever:

    • 26*1*25*24*23

  • probability of B being Unstoppable is then:

    • (26*1*25*24*23) / (27*26*25*24*23) = (26*1) / (27*26) = 1/27

It took me some time to wrap my head around this :laughing:
@grey-maybe By the way your previous answer (10/27) would be correct if mutators could not repeat between wave 1 and 2.

so I agree with Banana’s answer:

  • with a separate wave prob to get Unstoppable is 5/27
  • so to get Unstoppable in the whole run prob is 1-(1-5/27)^2
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Sorry to offtop, I wanted to post in that Crucible topic but it was closed because some people can’t behave apparently.

Anyway, I just checked Weakened mutator on that build with 19% crit damage and here’s what I’ve got:

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I’m, like, failing to see how it’s calculated. The only guess I have is it adds another x1.10 multiplier if total crit multiplier falls below x1.0, or something.

So basically, we have 10% as a base, 19% from other sources, but since we also have -30%, we have x0.99 crit multiplier which makes crits detrimential, so it adds another 10% to compensate.

1 Like