hmm, i see that it is partly gear related. But i wonder what is exactly needed. Buffing the skill only buffs builds that are already in a good spot. Buff gear might work, but i cant really see what to buff exactly to make this pan out. Maybe make a change to both elemental cadence gear pieces and warborn gear pieces. But what exactly i cant put my finger on.
Maybe some more flat and additional targets.
Also, chaos Cadence is unbelivable shit, but this is also partly cuz of Chaos Witchblade spec.
Both s&b and 2h specs are very bad and slow. DW seems to be ± ok but still a beta version of RahâZin WH.
Just tested the build myself doing several changes in devotion pathing, augments, offhand weapon, weapon components etc. I had the best result with this setup -> https://www.grimtools.com/calc/xZy54PnZ
Died at 170, 6.15 mark. But to be honesty, i really tried hard to do my best and do it as fast as possible with aggro to make packs and spread trauma as much as possible etc. This build severly lacks burst damage if you ask me.
1 Like
How are you guys conviniently ignoring a huge part of my and other builderâs argument, itâs just ridiculous. Where I am from people with similiar rhetorical skills make careers on governmentally run tv and in politics.
And the argument, which you always seem to be conviniently forgetting when you keep repeating your âcrucible is an aoe-centric environment yada-yadaâ mantra, is pretty simple: most synergetic melee builds have similiar problems with AOE but are good 1-1.5 minutes faster in Crucible.
Another thing which you keep ignoring is the case that I made for this thread: Warborn freaking Dervish showing absolutely similiar results.
I would say itâs partly Cadence partly physical.
That yields him like 15-20 seconds in the speedrunning specs. If you take a solid and balanced Belgothian Blademaster build that is not glassified for the sake of Crucible records you can still comfortably clear in sub 6 minute times, without Azrakaa or tripple blade spirits. I know because I made such a build, look up my Luminari Godkiller.
Great result! Best I (but not actually me, someone else) could do with my spec was 6:35. But I also have this problem of dying despite having more defenses on paper.
2 Likes
You guys, @Ceno @Evil_Baka @Norzan and others who feel like this, i donât think youâll ever come to agreement or even to understanding with so called âcutting edgeâ players who really are just endgame players trying to find challenge in the game they like.
All the arguments about campaign and dungeon performance of the build are moot and frankly out of place here. ANY endgame ready build flies through the 3 stages of MC easily. So iâm not really sure what is the meaning behind the phrase âomnipotent in the campaignâ. Every endgame build is omnipotent in the campaign. The only difference is how easily it reaches endgame. So if you are afraid Cadence can SOMEHOW become to easy to level with and farm dungeons with⊠just donât be. There are things miles above it, for any kind of content whether itâs veteran capmaign or shard 95.
In the end, if the skill does get too powerful (very, very hard to believe that) you can always tweak numbers more towards the dependence upon WD. So that the skill only becomes powerful with very high WD value which can only be reachable by the endgame setup.
More or less. The problem of armor is partially mitigated by 2H because 2H has fewer heavy hits so the dmg gets reduced less. The problem doesnât exist for EoR because this skill, with its high attack speed and small WD, makes basically all the flat dmg bonuses go through the armor due to 70% of monsterâs armor absorption.
Iâd say the problem is 60% phys dmg is bad and 40% Cadence is bad.
2 Likes
If they want a challenge why are they asking for buffs and complaining about nerfs? Idunno, seems pretty damn casual if you ask me.
2 Likes
Except this is rarely how Zantai sees it.
Every aspect of the game is equally as important to him in terms of a buildâs performance. If a skill is OP at level 10, I wager itâs something he cares about, and at the end of the day he is the person you are trying to convince to make these changes.
I am having difficulties to follow the exact problem, however i do recognize also in building myself that physical cadence lacks, i havenât tried elemental cadence. Maybe its just the way it works like the third hit does damage but yeah if it doesnât crit or hits low then you are again waiting for some better hit. It is too random. Maybe the skill should be something like a charge where the first 2 hits also do some damage. So like 150% 250% 350% or something. It would also be more friendly to lifesteal or more smooth and make it for dual wield possible to hit on the last charge or so. I dont know how to do it honestly but when i last checked primal strike at max level hits for 320% weapon damage in an area and can be spammed at attack speed. but yea that is a 2h skill so maybe not the best comparison. But 500% weapon damage on the third hit and from what i understand with only 1 weapon might not be on par with skills that deal this damage more spread out. The âburstâ feel might be more with skills that do consistent streams of damage and also be able to leech better of that. Even if dual wield phys cadence would hit with 2 weapons on the final charge i donât think this would âfixâ cadence and it might break other builds too.
This is the crux of the matter which I know for a fact is being widely missed.
When we are asked to test new content, we are explicitly asked not to do so with high-damage, âcutting-edgeâ builds. So, for instance, when 1.1.5.0 rolled around and brought the new roguelike with it, I slapped together a middle-of-the-ground, 1500% damage vitality build to see how the majority of players would experience the new content.
But, obviously, this sort of strategem isnât immediately apparent to people:
Skilled players GDStashing perfect rolls and slamming themselves against Crucible content is a poor representation of Grim Dawnâs playerbase and ergo not the only consideration for the way things are balanced.
Something being better (a vitality caster being better than a vitality autoattacker) or something being worse (physical cadence being worse than pierce cadence) is an inevitability of a game with customization as broad as GDâs. I understand the argument that, inherently, one might fundamentally expect a Physical Warborn Cadence build to automatically be better than all other implementations of Warborn Cadence, because Warborn grants Physical Damage and % Physical Damage. However, I do not agree with this assertion and, in fact, I am glad that it is not the case. Iâm glad thereâs still a means to get creative with sets and use them in ways that are not immediately apparent to fantastic results. If Warborn Cadence were shoehorned into Physical Damage, itâd be another monotonous set in a sea of monotonous sets.
5 Likes
Thatâs fair, and it would be also fair that people who actually play a lot of MC would make their feedback on the balance. Crucible players donât play MC so they have no idea whatâs OP at level 10 (bold assumption: not Cadence).
But where are all those topics of feedback on MC by you guys? Instead time after time we see feedback on endgame being crapped on by people with âMC argumentsâ. And to top that, those arguments arent really arguments at all. At the very least one would expect some comprehensive videos showing how good the subject of the discussion is in MC/dungeons compared to other things on the same level (like the OP did here). Not some vague scholasticism exercises.
Thatâs also not really fair, donât you think?
Nah Cadence sucks dick until level 60 or so 
We got dissuaded from bothering in public forums after months or years of âbut how does it perform in Crucible?â
That and, in general, MC balance is in a fairly good spot, with only a few exceptions here and there in areas that I donât expect Crate to address no matter what I write.
As a result, it should come as no surprise when MC-players appear somewhat hesitant to see things changed, as what weâve got at present is a pretty good state of things.
Glad to hear that. In that case, wont it be better if MC players would input their feedback accordingly?
âHey guys, this X you are talking about is perfectly fine in MC. So try to think of the way that buffs it for endgame but keeps it in place on lower difficultyâ.
Your assumption itâs correct!
For physical Soldier is far easier to level with Forcewave 2H or Blade Arc. In Stupid Dragon build people switching from FW to Cadence complained about loss of damage. I personally helped newbie with PM about leveling problems and shifting him from S&B and Cadence. His feedback was that Cadence physical leveling itâs slow.
So thatâs universal problem and not just some GD stashing guyâs problems.
But topic is about end game status and Warborn Cadence in particular.
If people received a strike every time they write something unrelated to the topic, they will already be striked out 
1 Like
Imo not even more RR added will save this build⊠The aoe is still shit even with the several layers of damage provided by blind fury, azraka, sethris eyeball etc. The real problem here is armor on mobs. The armor reduces the bursting capability of the build too much. This build needs at least more flat damage, if not flat damage and aoe too. Another option would be to go for snb warborn warlord but the attack speed will be affected.
Somehow a build that has a full mythical set and few double rare monster infrequents doesnât hit me as the build âmajorityâ of players would experience new content just because it has 1500% Vitality damage. It just looks like a poorly assembled build. I did make that comment just to remind you what it feels like to have unsolicited building advice in a feedback thread. Except there is one major difference - your advice was crap (no hard feelings).
So why are you keep bringing it up when we are discussing endgame?
Any endgame build crushes Main Campaign. Like completely trashes it. I am not sure if itâs even possible to balance endgame around Main Campaign, because even 7:30 minute build absolutely shits all over MC content.
1 Like
Worth nothing that fluff didnât really just âcompensateâ. Even if you build belgo just like a normal melee single target build, youâll still clear 6 mins at worst. Belgo took the AoE stuff to make belgo 4 mins, not to make it remotely good.
1 Like
Iâm talking more about skills and devotions here, things that are shared between endgame and MC builds. If you change Warborn you might eventually fix Warborn and keep the rest of the game untouched. But if you change Cadence it affects everything so every âvoteâ here matters.
1 Like
No, but itâd perform on about the same level.
If I wanted to make a bog-standard new-player build, I could just hit up some faction vendors and roll a traditional vit caster. But that shitâs boring, and I gotta have some fun when I test stuff, so I got creative.
Didnât I just answer this?
Tell that to the many hundreds of players I see struggling in Ultimate.
Most of them are struggling because they simply havenât learned how to beat this game efficiently. I donât think it has anything to do with balance. Once you get a grip of how stuff works and what skills/devotions/gear pieces work better and why everything becomes easy, even with poverty gear.
But we are seriously derailing this thread. Letâs get back to Physical Cadence discussion and how it came to this.
I think most beginner builds/leveling builds builders would confirm that Cadence is really sub-par at all stages of the game. I mean it suffers from the same problems Warborn Cadence suffers, especially physical one.
1 Like