Yes Ceno I did try to copy a main campaign character into the mod.If this is the problem it’s my own fault I won’t trouble you any more with it. Live and learn I’ll start a new tune and put it down to experience.
Yup. That is the problem. Don’t do that.
Tried a vitality based melee witchblade. Wanted to go cadence as the obvious choice for consistent damage + leech. My observations are cadence in its state is even worse than the legit one. The proc on the 5th hit severely hurts DPS and makes it even more AS dependent, fighting form and deadly momentum have all their weaknesses unaddressed.
It’s basically still crap, but worse.
I can expand the topic in details if anyone’s interested.
Do please. I know Ceno’s already retuning how it affects ranged.
In the mean time I have more constellations to finagle with.
Please do.
I nerfed flat damage on Cadence already but severely buffed the % Weapon Damage, feeling that DW (with better AS) can make too good use of flat damage on Cadence while 2H doesn’t really get much extra. But this, in turn, could wind up being a nerf to Conversion-builds in some cases - in others, maybe not.
In any case, you’re still going to want as much AS as possible, which is not a simple fix. Again, I think this goes back to needing to revert the multiplicative base AS change (@Crate) on weapons to being additive again so that 2H is at least usable for skills such as this. That’s not a change we can make, however.
But I’m interested in hearing your opinions on the new Cadence.
Yep, I can do that.
Seems as though the only skills that aren’t boosted by +1 all skills are the ones that we haven’t touched. Odd. We’ll fix this by simply renaming all the skills in the game, I suspect.
This really does seem like a wacky thing with the engine, though, if I’m going to be honest with you. With all respect to Crate - or, more probably, Iron Lore - the reason this is happening is actually pretty stupid. But I won’t go into that.
Because we’re so far into development of v0.2, I can’t really hotfix this (well, I could, but the merger would be a little tough…). So we’ll have to wait for v0.2 to release for +All Skills to work correctly. Sorry. Thankfully v0.2 should be coming in a week or a week and a half.
My thoughts on the cadence skill line:
Deadly momentum.
This support was good to have before, and now is even in a better shape. It has flat damage, good for both pure phys and conversions. The added AS benefits all kind of attackers and all damage types. Basically turned into something you’d like to have, rather than mostly a filler to put your spare points in and squeeze some DPS out. But I still think its % increase should not benefit a single type of damage (physical/trauma oriented). That’s what I always disliked in the way Crate use to balance at times, or in general - to balance a class strictly within its own skill tree and bent all the supports to the imaginary role this class is playing, instead of working around general skill/supports, which are able to open a variety of different and interesting cross-builds. Soldier = physical/trauma and all supports state it. The red key for the red door. Flat phys is ok for all (conversions included), same for AS but what about the % increase, what’s a vitality/chaos/elemental/etc. going to do with it? And why pick a support which got no effect over the damage type you are using?
IMO, according to deadly momentum, it should have % total damage increase in properly adjusted numbers. Less increase, but for all. It’ll make it even more attractive.
Fighting form.
It’s the worst of the whole cadence skill line. If you put a single point, cadence effectively remains a single target skill. One or two targets, what’s the difference? It can’t be considered AOE by no means. This means you have to invest 12 pts. to enable a pseudo AOE and some kind of crowd control. Unless you don’t max it, cadence in practice counts as a single target skill line for a massive investment of skill points. Then we come up with another problem - what’s the motivation to max it? Besides the additional target - none. In the past it was attractive for the crit multiplier, then got gutted (while BA kept its multiplier and the AOE is impressive, along with sufficient % WD). What about the other damage types, than physical? But no matter what, you are forced to have it maxed, if you don’t intend to play with a single target skill, no matter you got no additional benefits at all. It’s abusing. Like, “you have to work hard and sell your soul, to get this “imba” AOE in return” /facepalm
This support will feel much better with the additional target unlocked at lvl 1, and then it should have juicy rewards to invest further in it, can’t tell what.
Cadence.
The basic issue with this skill is its ability to override. Though I’m aware it’s gonna stay and can’t be improved.
I know why you reworked it to trigger on the 5th strike, but in my opinion it brought more problems, than solutions.
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Cadence turned into a single target skill for 4 hits in a row, and if you don’t have the deadly momentum skilled, you are dealing your base WD four times in a row, to a single target. It results in a severe DPS drop.
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Skill became even more AS dependent. Using it with slower weapons and/or no additional sources of AS increase, multiplies your net DPS loss.
For me, cadence should trigger on the second-third hit, even if it means its % WD/flat damage lowered, even significantly. It overrides anyway, you can attach a single proc to it anyway. It will serve a better purpose as a stable AOE enabler supporting various damage types, combined with improved fighting form, rather than a burst damage miracle once in a while. In its current state, there’s no single reason to pick cadence skill line over the zolhan’s/MA combo, which provide single target/AOE combined with good WD increase, for less points. It also allows 2 procs.
These are my personal observations as I see it. Could be just personal preferences and one may argue, it’s just my opinion on it. It’s coming from my perspective of a melee fanatic, playing around with exotic damage types and builds.
BTW is it technically possible to speed up the zolhan’s animation? Yet another “in your face” DPS fuck-up.
Also, I’ve read complaints in forum about the missing gear parts on the paper doll in start menu, it appear to be a general bug, right? And is there any way to avoid it, besides wearing the pieces of equipment the game “likes”? I’m playing mostly male chars and every time I see this naked bearded fuck in the game menu, I go out and kill a nest of kittens.
Done. Cheers.
Wait are you referring to our Fighting Form or vanilla Fighting Form? I thought I made our FF give you an additional target by rank 1 but it seems not; that’s an easy remedy, I can just shift the numbers down and then boost up its 22/12 rank accordingly. But even with ours, there’s a progressive increase to your AoE - melee or ranged - with investment and while maxing it is all the more powerful, I don’t feel that it’s as essential to do so as in Vanilla Grim Dawn. Right now, before I rescale things for rank 1 inclusion, here are the points at which you get another target (with melee):
Rank 3: 2 Targets
Rank 6: 3 Targets (this would be rank 12 in vanilla GD)
Rank 9: 4 Targets
Rank 12: 5 Targets
Rank 14: 6 Targets (Made this happen sooner than 15/12 so as to make it more viable to attain from simple +All Skills rather than requiring +Fighting Form in particular)
Rank 19: 7 Targets
Rank 20: 8 Targets
Rank 22: 9 Targets
Ranged scaling is a little lesser than this to account for the fact that a) you’re playing ranged, and b) shots have a chance to pierce. But it still scales throughout the ranks for gradual investment.
Regarding what I bolded and put in red: You’re aware that this boosts the base skill prior to conversion, right? So the +% Physical Damage boosts Cadence’s flat Physical Damage and then you can convert off the boosted value. So in a way it is essentially benefiting all damage types. Plus not every skill needs to support every damage type fully and totally. I like the Deadly Momentum change to Total Damage because its a global buff that would be more or less ignored (if not for the Attack Speed) for any non-Physical users. But I think its OK for some stats on the Cadence line to be more relevant to some builds than to others. This gives you challenges to overcome, however minor, in your build design if you’re one of the ‘others’.
(Responding out of order like a jackass):
2: 100% Correct. We will be looking into ways to mitigate that. Well, maybe 95% Correct. It did become more AS dependent, but only slightly moreso I think. If Cadence proc’d on every strike or if it proc’d on the 700th strike, you’d still want to stack AS for it because, well, that’s the meta of the game. Nothing we do is going to avoid that, ultimately, unless we radically shift up how things work.
1: I mean absolutely no disrespect by saying this, especially since I’ve really valued your input so far (which hasn’t changed), but this seems really naive. From a singular skill standpoint, sure, you’re 100% correct. Cadence is, literally, a one-hit, 100% WD skill 4 times out of 5. But Cadence’s downfall in the past has almost always been that there’s limited room for synergy with WPS. Things like Markovian’s Advantage, that apply significant damage AND debuff enemy DA, which would be great to have go off before your Cadence proc. Things like Zolhan’s Technique which can do a meaty amount of % Weapon Damage (frankly I kinda want to buff this up a bit but I’m unsure if it’d be too strong then) while also slowing down enemy Attack Speed, which squishier 2H/DW builds might really love to be able to proc reliably.
In the broad scheme of things, looking at someone at level 85 with all their skills picked and minmaxed, I honestly believe this 5th-hit thing was a good idea. For people with WPS and multiple skills that they may like to send out before procing Cadence, I think this change was made for them. And, ultimately, the Cornucopia mod is being built for people at level 85 with their skills picked and minmaxed. This is an Ultimate-difficulty rebalancing mod. Things are bound to get screwy and out-of-touch at lower levels. Does that suck? Yes. But we’re going to deal with it.
You have, however, given me an idea. Well, actually, lots of them. So thanks. 
I think I may be able to solve a bit of the problem you’re describing while also catering to the minmaxers a bit too…and, alongside that, I had an idea for a mod that could work pretty well in parallel to this one…
As for the rest:
1-Yeah no I completely understand and I can relate quite heavily. I’m a melee fanatic too. And I really miss my DW Cadence Battlemage being viable…I’m going to make it good again no matter what adoomgod says.
2-Maybe? Not sure.
3-As I understand it (which isn’t very well as I haven’t tested it myself), this has to do with using gear that gives you +attributes. Even if you don’t need those attributes to equip stuff, the bug will still occur. This is Crate’s problem, not ours.
Question:
Is it possible through modding for you guys to make so that Cadence’s 3rd it doesn’t overrides WPS skills? Or is it really impossible to make it work with them because of engine limitations and stuff?
EDIT:I guess my question might have been answered above, so I’ll read it later :eek:
Well…yes and no…to my knowledge we can’t keep both the ‘third hit’ bonus AND keep it from overriding procs. We could turn Cadence into a default attack modifier like Savagery or Beronath, but then every attack reaps the Cadence benefits and we’d need to balance accordingly around that.
Thanks for the input. And thanks for the deadly momentum rework.
About fighting form - I’m speaking out of my ass without maxing out the skill. BTW aren’t 5 targets…too much? Anyway, much better than the vanilla, fighting form should be a thing now. So what I wrote only applies to the original. Which reminds me, is Zantai paying attention? Taking notes and stuff? This apprentice…:eek:
According to the underlined phrase about the % phys increase, I really didn’t think about its synergy with conversions, nor took it into account.
So we’re still in disagreement about cadence For me, a skill of 40 points in total (considering full investment), leaves no room for other WPS skilled high enough to proc consistently and to release their full damage potential. It could be done, but such a build will probably face survivability issues and/or will be quite incomplete in other aspects.
I’ve always treated cadence mostly as a stable source of AOE when it triggers, easily improved with investments in AS. I’ve come to the conclusion, that AOE of a skill overcomes the built-in damage increase, as it can be bypassed by external factors. Damage can easily come from gear, both flat/%, crowd control is what’s hard to get in this game. The single target damage for ex. can be bypassed by a single component (like oleron’s might for phys builds, etc.). And people mostly die to trash mobs due to poor CC , rather than to bosses. Could be just personal preferences, of course.
Ok, I gotta go really soon, but since you replyed here… Can’t you make so that Cadence works similar to Fire Strike?
Like, you attack normally, and has a % chance of dealing increased % weapon damage? You could make this bonus a fixed value, or ake it scale as you increase the skill (Ex: At 1/16 = 20% of 100% weapon damage. At 8/16 = 25% of 140% weapon damage, and so on…)
I think that way, you could balance it so taht it can work with WPS skills, since it doesn’t uses a mechanic that overrides the procs.
As far as I know, % Weapon Damage is one of the few things you can’t attach a % Chance to. It’s all or nothing, it seems. Blame Crate.
Maybe. I wanted to make it a miniBlade Arc with more focused damage. Blade Arc can get up to 13 (?) targets total but its damage is almost solely % Weapon Damage, unless you’re somehow rolling Internal Trauma/Bleed on it and aren’t banging your head against a wall. Wanted Cadence to have less targets and less often, but a lot more burst.
http://grimcalc.com/build/pPZhxv
http://grimcalc.com/build/QHiMC8
I don’t know, seems like you can max out Cadence and still make use of some procs AND pick up some utility skills/defenses.
I do agree that AoE is important for a skill like Cadence, hence the Fighting Form changes. So I’m not really sure what we’re arguing about here.
Here’s the thing with Bloody Pox, its slower by half than poison. Poison will always win out DPS wise because of its “on hit” mechanism. Bloody Pox, even with your buff, feels slower than DEE, and it always will. Unless you add an on hit mechanic, BP will always feel weaker compared to the stronger and more viable Poison builds.
A huge bleed build killer is the amount of debuffs you need in certain areas of the game.
TL;DR - BP will always be in the back set compared to DEE.
Well, shit… 
Then try making it do a % chance of % increased physical damage and see if it works. Similar example as I mentioned above: 25% of 100% increased physical damage at 1/16, 32% of 150% increased physical damage…
It would work sort of like a fusion of Fire Strike and the old Lethal Gambit in that each skill level would make you deal more base damage with your normal hits, with a chance of dealing an even stronger attack every now and then, while working with WPS skills.
I think you should try it, since you guys are tweaking stuff.
I was hesitant writing up this post because, honestly, the new Ulzuin’s Chosen is amazing. Really amazing. Possibly in need of a nerf amazing.
When Cornucopia hit I fired up a Quick Jacks character that I’ve always wanted to enjoy but never found worth progressing with. Somewhere around Lv32 or such I made it to 50Demo and picked up Ulzuin’s Chosen. Threw 1 or 2 points into it and started working on other skills. After a while I noticed I would occassionally get really big numbers; 3x what I get from 17/1/12 Jacks.
After much pondering I decided to test just how far Ulzuin’s Chosen could carry me. I started a new character and @Lv20 I had 10/10 UC. I think even at only 4/10 it was sufficient for trash, but at 10/10 I just run around and things explode. I am currently Lv51 working through Elite Act2 with no signs of slowing down. Heroes drop pretty quick depending on affix and some Bosses go down quickly as well. My build looks like this: http://grimcalc.com/build/09nbkS In retrospect Pryomancer might have been better for CoF/Vuln.
I have picked up some rather good epics along the way (Empowered Leander Greene’s Hand Cannon +1 Demo, Magnison Trench Coat +2 Ulzuin’s Chosen) but my overall gear seems meh.
I should also add that UC is bindable for both Active (Imp, Widow) and Passive (Tortoise, Behemoth) Celestial Powers. I’m using Solael’s Witchblade for -fire/chaos resists at the moment. Most enemies die before it procs though. =( Still useful for Heroes/Bosses. My Devotion path is aimed at Light of Empyrion for even more passive aoe damages.
I will continue pushing towards Ultimate, but wanted to share what I have found so far.
Zip attached for those interested.
UC has already been nerfed fairly significantly for v0.2. It was too strong indeed.
Another idea I had for Cadence that should make WPS skills viable and still keeping the mechanic intact:
Keep the Cadence hit on the 5th strike, give the flat physical damage buff from Deadly Momentum to the main skill itself, make the bonus scale up as you level Cadence up and make it trigger as soon as you hit the enemy for the first time, instead of only after the Cadence strike, and then reduce the damage of the Cadence hit a bit(for balancing, or else the buff will probably make the Cadence hit waaaaa too strong).
That way, you can turn the Deadly Momentum modifier into something else, or just have it increase your attack speed, physical damage % and OA instead.
I think this will help making Cadence more versatile and will work better with WPS skills.
I rolled the Ulzuin’s chosen character with grenado and canister bomb, the aura damage did taper off in ultimate but was obviously still too powerful for what it does.
Overall, its a much better skill imo, Im not a fan of the damage aura component because im not a fan of that mechanic, it takes away holding back damage to proc ooc regen, but the change to the cooldown make it pretty crazy without the other stuff.
I think that ulzuin’s chosen is bugged, I dont think it actually gives the %alldamage that is says it does, I’ve tested it multiple times and other sources boost my cb damage but not my ulzuin’s chosen buff. I think its pretty scary that its this op even without the 150% all damage im supposed to be getting.
Edit: also, olexra’s flash freeze is far too strong now, it has a 16m range (full screen) and I can pretty much spam it. I can kill things in ultimate by just casting it and standing next to them, and its 100% safe since they can’t move. It’s basically like vulnerability before it got nerfed + old flash freeze, so now its just the most insane cc i’ve ever seen in a game next to kripp’s old perm groundslam character in poe.