GT avg OA for the top20 trickster is 3283 as i just showed you above - the ingame has 3500somethinh/5% more
Is that a Grimtools average? Is that why we’re disagreeing?
To be clear, the numbers I’m getting for the 0 seed are 2859 OA, which has a 20% miss chance against Celestials and a ~6% miss chance against SR80 KaIsan. Taken without debuffs from the boss.
The Korba build as it was when downloaded has 3367 OA with all buffs active. 10% miss against Celestials and 100% hit against SR80 Fabius taken without debuffs.
Are you playing on the patch test version? Let me redownload the character, maybe there’s been changes in the last 10 days.
Well – I like to play a build at the beginning the same as I play at the end. So leveling a Shaman or Trickster with Primal Strike for example only to completely change it to Savagery at level 94 is not the way I play. Since the game allows for many different play styles I will continue to play it my way. You can play your way. Doesn’t mean that one is more ‘casual’ than another. Apparently these top 20 builds used GD Stash which isn’t even playing at all – is it?
i’m not
wondering if we’re using different saves tho? Trickster, Level 100 (GD 1.2.1.2) - Grim Dawn Build Calculator
i’m using Lees updated for 1.2.1 not the “old” for 1.2 ⭐ Top 20 Softcore builds, ft. HC approved section from RektbyProtoss! [1.2.0.5] (An Onion) - #346 by mad_lee
A good chunk of the OA comes from Savagery’s Tenacity of the Boar.
Reaching that breakpoint is crucial for dps. A lot of the OA comes from %OA rolls on items, which have narrow windows (3-5% for example) making it easy to get a perfect roll (1 in 3) and having huge impact on the overall DPS
So the %OA as well as maybe missing any temporary buffs, from say Savagery, might be why you got such a huge dps difference
I made sure to have 9 stacks of Savagery and Pneumatic Burst active for all comparisons. I think Gnomish and I were using different versions of the build. He’s also comparing it to Grimtools average and I was comparing to 0 seed actual build.
I think that’s the difference.
our GT averages should still be the same tho, unless we’re using different trickster version since they (drastically) changed the setup from 1.2 initial as the phys res changed in 1.2.1
We were using different builds. I downloaded from the 1st post a couple weeks ago, you were using the one from later in the thread.
New version has a lot more OA, also has a lot more damage in general.
yes, it got changed because Z pulled a 1.2.1 during the finalization of the top20, which just mucked “everything” up 
- so couple updates was made to some to still keep them relevant for the phys changes’
i’ll use the old save instead so our foundation is the same, otherwise it’s no wonder our numbers don’t match 
Knock your socks off. I’m not going to do it again, so I’ll even accept whatever number you come up with without challenge.
Ultimately the actual number doesn’t really matter for my point, which was the GDStashed builds are unrealistic and average joe isn’t going to get those numbers.
I still think that there’s no solution here either. No one sane thinks that the high roll builds are representative of what an average person would get and the “top builders” aren’t going to use 0 seed to standardise things because it’s also not representative.
We can’t actually solve this issue.
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actually can, or rather, make it “more” reasonable from a perspective - just do what i do, use the save editor once 
then the authors have to constantly share that specific save tho, and it makes it hard to make changes, in the sense that unless you gdstash a single item each time an item change is made - and with enough changes you can still run in to the “but you ended up at 30 spawns”
i personally also never got that impression, or even think it was outright suggested. Unsure if it was “emphatically” stated that this is potential “BiS as it comes” tho,
Maybe the authors should put in some sort of disclaimer:
These builds are aspirational content and you should expect to spend thousands of hours to get even close to the shown performance. Lowest rolls on these items should expect x% less performance, and on average you should expect y% less.
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i mean, this is kinda pointless as it wont happen?
i already said, aside from 0seed not occurring in game, even on a statistically anomaly you “can’t”/wont min roll 14 slots, it just doesn’t happen “law of numbers” or whatever you wanna call it - you will get some(several) slots that is higher than min, also even if it wont even to avg rolls overall but it wont be actual “lowest roll” build.
(this is the particular point of why i found your comparison so egregious/it’s more invalid than the top20 saves )
I’m not getting into this again.
Sure, 0seed wont happen on 14 items, but 0 rolls on the 3 stats that matter on items can happen. I’m just saying, the swing in performance is something we can know and it might be worth pointing it out.
no like, it doesn’t happen, sure it can, 1/xxxxx
you will not min roll that many “favoured” stats, on 14slots, even if we only care about 3 - it’s so far out an anomaly.
Heck lower it to 2 and i’d still say it probably wont happen frequently
you can probably GDstash more items to get such an item, than you would spawn amount of times to get an above avg rolled or “close” to top20 filthy saves
30+ spawns for top20, 300+ for yours (legit guessing more) - simply because of how the variable rolls in effect when bottoming out multiple stuff.
there is a huge difference vs actual bottom roll, or below avg roll
numbers pulled from ass, say there exists like 10 seeds with actual min rolls on the favoured stats, and there will be 100 seeds with 1 min rolled and the other 2 above min rolled (also while the other 2 are still below avg).
Srs, go spawn a zillion items and you will observe how hard it becomes to actually bottom roll that many desired stats at the same time. - it’s not hard to bottom roll a key stat or multiple key stats; but across multiple items, like neg res on item 1 neg res on item 2 etc, but not while all the other stuff is min too. - that’s way beyond a few ingame drops/or item spawns.
sure, easily arguable, but it has also been mentioned here, the ingame impact is not that significant, not just in the actual numbers 5-8-13%, but in gameplay effect (by me atleast )
i mentioned this in another thread talking about the top20 saves, they do not make it or break it from an avg roll/avg build - atleast not in my hand. Those 5-8% doesnt’ confer a pass/fail rate against either celestials let alone SR.
and for me atleast they don’t even confer any meaningful SR clear speed either/something i can’t attribute as variable in my own controlling and pilot performance (i’m “consistently slow”, even on decent builds)
I know this, because i’ve used the save editor for 1 shot creations, and actual saves direct form Lee, Roman etc during testing
Yeah that was my complaint about the items used in the build. You’re not going to get items that good. Yes, there’s a few stats that are a point or 5 off max, but they’re so absurdly rare that you’re never going to get them.
Try 2,000+ for some of them. I flat out refuse to believe that those items come from spawning 30 items. It’s just not true. Maths says no.
that’s the point, they aren’t really “technically” that rare, like 1/30-50 drops
sure that might seem unreasonable from ex a alkamos ring or green perspective; but it’s a far cry from the 1/2500, and it’s even furthher away from the 0/1billion of 0 seed
no, and as a former intense GDstasher i can even guarantee you that,
might definitely be more than 30 sometimes, more like try a full page or 3 pages if it’s a big slot item (chest/legs etc), but you most definitely don’t need to break a thousand - even i didn’t have the patience for that on the regular
i actually just did that
spawned a full page each of korba axes, 45 each/a full page each
i got 0 that min rolled all the 3 desirables, flat/%cold/speed
and 1 that min rolled 2
i spawned 100 alkamos rings, got 0 that min rolled both flat and % dmg, but multiple that would min roll flat and speed, only 1 that min rolled %dmg and speed
i’m not gonna begin to count the total above avg rolls tho 
- but i did manage to get some better than the top20 save on the dmg//speed/oa rolls tho
transfer gdstahed korbas.zip (18.5 KB)
*and yes i know 1/45 isn’t truly representative of RNG nor what an “average joe” would go through (tho with transmute that would “technically” be somewhat an option 
) - and ofc specially for the 100 alkamos,
just trying to say it doesn’t take that many spawns to get a good item, but it will definitely take many to get the “complete” bad item/with 3/multiple main favoured min rolled at the same time
I’ve already showed the maths behind this. Assuming even distribution from seeds, the chance to match or be better than the items used, specifically the Korba’s Decapitator is 16/2544 or 0.62% of total spawns.
Which I guess is actually about 1 in 200, so 2000 was out by an order of magnitude. Still, it’s possible there is some bias towards higher rolls. If not, you got lucky.
i dont’ think that, also judging based on my many stashes and the new 1shot editor approach
this is your issue, i’m fairly certain that’s indeed not the case
and is illustrated in how hard it is to both max roll but also min roll multiple desireables at the same time
it’s even somewhat highlighted on ex conversion belts where the amount you get with actual 60% conversion, vs 59% is huge, like massive difference.
I’m unsure if it’s just because of rounding, but i’d kinda doubt it with the perception of distribution atleast from my own experience - not gonna say that i’ve gdstashed enough to get that true/full picture/“enough data set”, but it definitely seems like it when you GDstash 12 pages of something
It’s not so much that there is a bias to either side/high/low, but that there is a distinct bias away from actual min/max comboing, hence the numbers pulled from ass earlier with 10 seeds existing of actual 3x mins, vs 100 seeds where 1 is min and 2 is off min/(even if still below avg)
^also ignoring that seemingly (some items) simply can’t roll certain stat ranges/values, where with 100+spawns you will consistently skip ex a 99value on an item with 101% max dmg or something. You’ll have 50 items at 100% and 125 items at 98% but like 5 on 101% and “0” on 99%
And then the like sweet spot where you just get some automatic updown, like it also showed with my 45/100 stashes now. Where it’s basically “impossible” to min roll the %dmg, while min rolling something else with a large roll range, so sure i can min roll 89% dmg, but then the flat will just stubbornly bottom at 13 instead of 12.
Seems somewhat consistent the more you’ve used GDstash, to the point you can almost like look at an item, see the weapon flat maxed, and you instantly know the %dmg will be 10 off (this is more obviosus if other stats is maxed at the same time, similar to the multi min roll issue)
you don’t know how much RNGesus isn’t friendly towards me most of the time 
This is truth right here from another person who extensively used GDStash in the past (not much IRL time so need to test builds quickly).
As it’s been said, the game doesn’t screw you over and give you pow rolls anyways. It’s really impossible. Overall, the game gives you slightly lower than average to high rolls so “average” rolls seem to come out higher than the middle.
This discussion reminds me of people complaining about GD patches saying there’s nerfs everywhere but it’s mostly buffs all around!